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That publishing of his address is inappropriate, but the guy has either personally injected himself onto the American political landscape intentionally, or he didn't really want to be and McCain really f#*'ed him over by throwing him onto the national stage.
NOTE: My thoughts below are all premises on purported "facts" taken from the following article, and I can't stand by its accuracy, but if its true this is interesting stuff about McCain's new spokesperson 'Joe the Plumber' becomes center of debate - USATODAY.com
What is quite interesting though is that apparently Joe the Plumber has had 2 liens on his house, 1 for UNPAID MEDICAL BILLS and 1 for unpaid personal income taxes. You'd think that he'd be more sympathetic to the candidate whose plan -- call it Socialist or whatever you will -- would make it easier for someone like him to get health care. Anyway, the medical lien was paid off via GARNISHMENT OF HIS WAGES, the other apparently is still on file (public records).
Also, it appears as though the business he dreams of buying but -- the one which, after analyzing the liens against his house, isn't even close to realistically thinking of buying -- has annual sales of about $100K, which is $150K less than the gradated amount over which the income taxes would increase by 3% for that portion.
So Joe the Plumber (a) apparently needs to get his own sh#* together before he thinks of buying his boss out, as in getting out of small amounts of debt that had been sitting around so long a lien was filed against his house; (b) would have to increase the company's profits by one and a half times over after buying it to get hit by the higher GRADATED tax level; and (c) might want to take another look at how Obama's healthcare plan is perhaps preferable to McCain's for someone who isn't exactly killin' it at work.
I don't bring this up b/c I think its appropriate for the media to go into a private citizen's life, but this guy has embraced his celebrity and, once again, either intentionally or unwittingly by McCain, was thrust onto the scene. We need to know more about the people campaigns associate with, John McCain says. Joe the Plumber seems to have become the focal point of the McCain campaign!
What is quite interesting though is that apparently Joe the Plumber has had 2 liens on his house, 1 for UNPAID MEDICAL BILLS and 1 for unpaid personal income taxes. You'd think that he'd be more sympathetic to the candidate whose plan -- call it Socialist or whatever you will -- would make it easier for someone like him to get health care. Anyway, the medical lien was paid off via GARNISHMENT OF HIS WAGES, the other apparently is still on file (public records).
No, because Joe doesn't want handouts. That's exactly what "selective tax breaks" and "distribution of wealth" and "socialized medicine" is. That's exactly what it is. It is the people going "I DESERVE this, I DESERVE that. The government OWES me this."
You know what? The government doesn't owe you shit. There's a price to pay for the freedom that is unique to our great nation. Some pay with their lives, some with their souls, and others with their checkbooks. Pick one. There are people who go into combat and never come back, and do you know what they get? A couple thousand dollars for funeral expenses, and a flag. You think you DESERVE free medicine as well as other peoples' hard earned cash just because you pay taxes? What balls!
Joe the Plumber is a man's man. He's not one to bitch about how life is unfair and how he should get handouts from the government. Liens or not, Joe is paying for his expenses with HIS paycheck, not the tax monies of other hard working Americans. He realizes that he needs to make more money to make ends meet, so he's expanding his business to do so. He's taking matters into his own hands---something that many Americans simply are too lazy to do. This country has turned from the land of opportunity into the land of "gimme gimme gimme!"
Disgusting.
P.S. This isn't an attack toward anyone here, just a general rant...so don't go taking offense now, ya hear?
Last edited by Navy076996 : 10-16-2008 at 08:57 PM.
NAVY: I love debating this stuff, and I've (I think) been doing so with ADZE, EX4100 and Whiskey in a respectable manner. This is fun, and we shouldn't take offense to each other! So I like the attitude you wrapped your post up with, not meant to attack anyone. Neither am I. Here it goes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Navy076996
No, because Joe doesn't want handouts. That's exactly what "selective tax breaks" and "distribution of wealth" and "socialized medicine" is. That's exactly what it is. It is the people going "I DESERVE this, I DESERVE that. The government OWES me this."
You know what? The government doesn't owe you shit. There's a price to pay for the freedom that is unique to our great nation. Some pay with their lives, some with their souls, and others with their checkbooks. Pick one. There are people who go into combat and never come back, and do you know what they get? A couple thousand dollars for funeral expenses, and a flag. You think you DESERVE free medicine as well as other peoples' hard earned cash just because you pay taxes? What balls!
Joe the Plumber is a man's man. He's not one to bitch about how life is unfair and how he should get handouts from the government. Liens or not, Joe is paying for his expenses with HIS paycheck, not the tax monies of other hard working Americans. He realizes that he needs to make more money to make ends meet, so he's expanding his business to do so. He's taking matters into his own hands---something that many Americans simply are too lazy to do. This country has turned from the land of opportunity into the land of "gimme gimme gimme!"
Disgusting.
P.S. This isn't an attack toward anyone here, just a general rant...so don't go taking offense now, ya hear?
Joe the Plumber is a guy who basically lied to play "Gotcha" with Obama. He said he had a "plan" to buy out a business, and was worried that it would be taxed higher (he currently would have to not only deal with his own poor money management that drove him into debt, he'd also have to become a great business manager to increase profits by that amount, 100K to 250K). He is so debt ridden that he has liens filed against his house (this comes after a looooong period of collection/harassment calls), and only makes $40K a year. Since he is in debt, we can assume he hasn't been saving money. And he isn't in his 20's anymore, to say the least. Probably in his 40's. He's better get his S#*t together soon!
Plus, the first 250K would be taxed at a certain rate, THEN the ADDITTIONAL amount OVER 250K would be taxed 3% higher ... not exactly going to ruin his dream, which is really a fantasy at this point in his life, and he is apparently not that young to amass enough capital to purchase the company if he is curently so unable to pay a few grand in debt that it took him so long to deal with his creditors that they filed liens against him.
With regard to the medical debt, he must've been an uninsured who showed up to the emergency room. Then the government or a private collection agency had to (1) harass him until he paid it; and then (2) when he didn't pay it, use their legal department to file a lien and then maybe a lawsuit against him. Its an inefficient nightmare that costs us ALL.
Joe the Plumber going to the hospital without insurance is the exact same thing we all (rightly) complain about when illegals do it. Yes, its different b/c Joe pays taxes and such, but he doesn't have the money to pay for his care, so it is similar in that he drives up the costs for everyone else b/c he wasn't able to manage his own money effectively and relied on either the Federal&State laws demanding he receive treatment from the hospital regardless of ability to pay, or MEDICAID!
Joe the Plumber is basically a guy who engages in behavior that conservatives usually crap all over. We pay the inefficiency-associated costs b/c he can't pay for his own medical care, and he ties up the legal system with liens against his home, which the attorneys then have to file for garnishment of his wages, etc. THEN, he doesn't even have a shot right now of buying the company yet and it currently makes 150K less than the higher gradated tax level, but he is already PLAYING THE VICTIM!!!! I thought you hated it when non-victims play the victim.
Joe the Plumber basically has to win the lottery in order to be able to worry about the 3% higher tax rate on the money he earns in his fantasy that is over the 250K. The first 250K tax level isn't raised.
This is silly. I have sympathy for the guy and can see clearly how Obama's policies are preferable for Joe moreso than McCain's. Objectively, he'd have paid $500 less in taxes next year
Last edited by Hoes Humper : 10-17-2008 at 12:42 AM.
No, because Joe doesn't want handouts. That's exactly what "selective tax breaks" and "distribution of wealth" and "socialized medicine" is. That's exactly what it is. It is the people going "I DESERVE this, I DESERVE that. The government OWES me this."
You know what? The government doesn't owe you shit. There's a price to pay for the freedom that is unique to our great nation. Some pay with their lives, some with their souls, and others with their checkbooks. Pick one. There are people who go into combat and never come back, and do you know what they get? A couple thousand dollars for funeral expenses, and a flag. You think you DESERVE free medicine as well as other peoples' hard earned cash just because you pay taxes? What balls!
Joe the Plumber is a man's man. He's not one to bitch about how life is unfair and how he should get handouts from the government. Liens or not, Joe is paying for his expenses with HIS paycheck, not the tax monies of other hard working Americans. He realizes that he needs to make more money to make ends meet, so he's expanding his business to do so. He's taking matters into his own hands---something that many Americans simply are too lazy to do. This country has turned from the land of opportunity into the land of "gimme gimme gimme!"
Disgusting.
P.S. This isn't an attack toward anyone here, just a general rant...so don't go taking offense now, ya hear?
Bada Bing!!!
True Capitalism encourages more personal responsibilty. Not the brand demonized at our Universities, media and Hollywood since the 60's or practiced by crooks. Capitalism doesnt only help the rich and is not deeply flawed cruel system. Some who operate in the system are MUTTS. But we have that in every system. Think Goverment. If people lose an entrepreneurial spirit and we all work for the government then who will make the money?? Amtrak is a perfect example of a failed government run business. It hasnt made a profit ever since the government got involed. In fact yearly cash infusions are needed.
Personal responsibility in the Capitalistic System means more individuals freely control their own money, and personally enjoy or suffer the consequences of their own choices. No hand outs, bail outs, No free rides. You dig a hole. You lay in it. Personally, I wouldnt want it any other way.
Government interventon prevents people from being accountable for their own decisions. Intervention doesnt reduce negative consequences of bad economic decisions, it simply means the effects will be bourne by citizens who didnt make the decisions and who dont deserve the consequences. Think the sc*m sucking Politicians who are deflecting responsibilty regarding Fannie and Freddie. WHERE ARE THE INVESTIGATIONS???? Search youtube for cogressional hearings regarding Fannie & freddie. The Cogressional leadership said they were fine and thought it was a political attack to say otherwise.
Instead with Laissez-faire, a person makes his choices and expects to personally bear the consequences. He is, then, inclined to make enriching choices. Capitalism is therfore more personal than than in any other system.
Last edited by ADZE07 : 10-17-2008 at 10:49 AM.
Reason: spelling
True Capitolism encourages more personal responsibilty. Not the brand demonized at our Universities, media and Hollywood since the 60's. Capitolism doesnt only help the rich and is not deeply flawed cruel system. Some who operate in the system are MUTTS. But we have that in every system. Think Goverment.
Personal responsibility in the Capitolistic System means more individuals freely control their own money, and personally enjoy or suffer the consequences of their own choices. No hand outs, bail outs, No free rides. You dig a hole. You lay in it. Personally, I wouldnt want it any other way.
Government interventon prevents people from being accountable for their own decisions. Intervention doesnt reduce negative consequences of bad economic decisions, it simply means the effects will be bourne by citizens who didnt make the decisions and who dont deserve the consequences.
Instead with Laissez-faire, a person makes his choices and expects to personally bear the consequences. He is, then, inclined to make enriching choices. Capitolism is therfore more personal than than in any other system.
ADZE, I think my point is that "Joe the Bummer" isn't a great example for the McCain crowd to be pimping out as a responsible guy. He didn't pay medical bills -- which screws all of us up, particularly if it was for emergency care he couldn't pay for (no wonder an aspirin costs $20, because Joe the Bummer didn't pay his medical bills!) -- and he also doesn't pay his taxes right now on time, costing us more money for government attorneys to put liens on his home. Oh yeah, the hospital attorneys/collection agents also had to spend $$ putting a lien on his home then applying for, and receiving, a FORCED GARNISHMENT of his wages.
So ADZE, the message of personal responsibility is a noble and strong one. This turd isn't a great example, however. Even if it could be argued that he's just a hard-working guy struggling with some money issues, and is a good dude, he CLEARLY was full of S%*t when he said he was going to buy his boss' business. He didn't even have a plan and small amounts of debt are so hard for him to pay that he gets his wages garnished!
Joe the Bummer (a) won't be buying that business anytime soon; and (b) wouldn't be making close to $250K anyway.
Plus, once again, only the amount OVER $250K is taxed at a rate 3% higher than the below-$250K rate.
Joe has no worries. The Bush tax cuts obviously weren't taht helpful to poor Joe, as he is in debt. Maybe the extra $500 he would have received under Obama's tax structure last year would've been helpful; could have applied it towards his personal tax debt, which is probably accruing interest while he struggles to find some cash.
ADZE, I think my point is that "Joe the Bummer" isn't a great example for the McCain crowd to be pimping out as a responsible guy. He didn't pay medical bills -- which screws all of us up, particularly if it was for emergency care he couldn't pay for (no wonder an aspirin costs $20, because Joe the Bummer didn't pay his medical bills!) -- and he also doesn't pay his taxes right now on time, costing us more money for government attorneys to put liens on his home. Oh yeah, the hospital attorneys/collection agents also had to spend $$ putting a lien on his home then applying for, and receiving, a FORCED GARNISHMENT of his wages.
So ADZE, the message of personal responsibility is a noble and strong one. This turd isn't a great example, however. Even if it could be argued that he's just a hard-working guy struggling with some money issues, and is a good dude, he CLEARLY was full of S%*t when he said he was going to buy his boss' business. He didn't even have a plan and small amounts of debt are so hard for him to pay that he gets his wages garnished!
Joe the Bummer (a) won't be buying that business anytime soon; and (b) wouldn't be making close to $250K anyway.
Plus, once again, only the amount OVER $250K is taxed at a rate 3% higher than the below-$250K rate.
Joe has no worries. The Bush tax cuts obviously weren't taht helpful to poor Joe, as he is in debt. Maybe the extra $500 he would have received under Obama's tax structure last year would've been helpful; could have applied it towards his personal tax debt, which is probably accruing interest while he struggles to find some cash.
You're stuck looking at a tree and not the forrest. The messege isnt "Joe" but small businesses that will be negatively effected by NoBamas plan. If McCain is smart his messege will be NO RAISING TAXES PERIOD. He should shout that he will implement a spending FREEZE or CUTS!!!!. Obama and a liberal Congress with a cloture majority will pass spending bills that were killed using a fillabuster the last eight years. No one with a single brain cell thinks that Obama and his Liberal majority wont be taxing and spending BIG. The messege is the Middle class doenst create jobs. Business does. Bottom up economics is simply income redistribution. Taking from the hard workers and giving to the slackers who more often than not are the cause for there own tale of woe and heart ache. All this numbers mumbo jumbo is just distracting minutia from the truth. That truth is huge Government entitltement programs which will be funded by huge tax increases in a very unstable economic environment will prolong this crisis and further hurt the taxpayer. This is the messege that resonates with people like "joe" in the battleground states. That is the reason the Obama campaign is fighting hard to cloud the issue with minutia.
Do you own a business?? I would encourage you to speak to some small business owners about tax increases and how they would effect business viability not a political view point. As I posted they have nothing to lose with there policies. If they don't make at least $250,000 they aint hiring anyone and therefor this argument is moot cuz they arent the type of small business that is being discussed by McCain.
ADZE, my point was the McCain campaign should've been a little more careful in picking its Plumber. Also, that small business earned $100K last year, not close to $250K.
I don't like the idea of raising taxes on anyone, but I also know that its BS to say "special needs parents will have a friend in the White House" and talk about the need for more research, specifically for autism (I think its very important), but to say there will be a spending freeze. That's why I like Obama's "scalpel" theory/talking-point rather than accross-the-board spending freezes. Its not like the Bush budgets (not even including the Iraq War) have been "conservative". So not terribly much will change.
It might even be more efficient to have Joe the Plumber directly involved in socialized healthcare rather than having government attorneys or hospital collection agents chase him down and file liens against his house. THAT is inefficient, you know? Medicaid is probably the least efficient way to have medical bills paid, ever. Just calling a spade a spade and socializing healthcare might even save a ton of $$.
ADZE, my point was the McCain campaign should've been a little more careful in picking its Plumber. Also, that small business earned $100K last year, not close to $250K.
I don't like the idea of raising taxes on anyone, but I also know that its BS to say "special needs parents will have a friend in the White House" and talk about the need for more research, specifically for autism (I think its very important), but to say there will be a spending freeze. That's why I like Obama's "scalpel" theory/talking-point rather than accross-the-board spending freezes. Its not like the Bush budgets (not even including the Iraq War) have been "conservative". So not terribly much will change.
It might even be more efficient to have Joe the Plumber directly involved in socialized healthcare rather than having government attorneys or hospital collection agents chase him down and file liens against his house. THAT is inefficient, you know? Medicaid is probably the least efficient way to have medical bills paid, ever. Just calling a spade a spade and socializing healthcare might even save a ton of $$.
If you dont like the idea of raising taxes then why vote for the candidate who is going to do just that?? If you like all the promises that NoBama is making than at least be honest and say you want others to pay for it. Our own Liberal Governor to his credit is slashing the multi billion dollar NY State budget bacause of income shortfalls. Our Federal budget is in the trillions. Thats TRILLIONS. Just recently Congress added billions of pork spending in the Bailout plan. I believe we shouldnt use a scalpel but a chain saw to reduce the Federal Government. That would be prudent Government. As a father of a one y/o baby boy with Down Syndrome I absolutely believe Palin when she says she will be an advocate for the cause. I wasnt effect before my baby came along but I'm a strong advocate today. I'm organizing a Fund Raiser for awareness because I was Blessed with a Baby with Down Syndrome. So circumstances changes things.
"Joe" confronted Obama not McCain. McCain saw the tape and made reference to it during the last debate saying he wanted to protect "small business" from business choking taxes. W all watched the video and thus drew conclusions from it. I wouldnt call that "Pimping". The issue isnt "Joe" but McCains notion that taxing "small business" will only hurt the economy and not help it. High taxes will prolong economic hardships. It was a simple reference and "joe" is not a poster boy for the McCain Campaign. The reason this messege and "joe" has gained traction is bacause "joes" response to NoBamas tax plans has struck a cord with hard working American people who believe that "taxing" hard working Americans (especially in swing states) and giving it to illegals aliens and slackers is not what they want.
Socialized Healthcare saving $$
My lord!! You have a better chance getting pregnant. More fuzzy math. 30 million people are un insured according to NoBama. What he doesnt say is 10 million are illegal immigrants. 10 million can afford it but chose not to have it. Alll the rest can simply ride the Bone Box and get fixed like they always have.
More Robbing Hood mentality.
Nice chatting but I havent had a trade this morning and I have to make up what Nobama will be taking from me shortly.
ADZE, what I'm saying is the unisured GET HEALTHCARE ANYWAY. Its just more convoluated, beaurectratic, and inefficnent right now.
For example, Joe the Plumber goes to the emergency room without insurance or enough cash to pay his bills. Either Medicaid paid for his services then went after his money after he received them (where the medical bills lien could have come from), or the hospital itself privately sued him, all the while driving up costs for us all. If Joe the Plumber, being uninsured, had a more substantial injury that costs tens of thousands of dollars ... guess what? He's going bankrupt and Medicaid is footing the bill. Those in the higher tax brackets are paying for it moreso than the middle and lower classes already.
If Joe gets F-ed up in a car accident, he's going to the hospital and we're all F#&*ed because McCain's new campaign centerpiece is irresponsible and didn't buy himself insurance with the prosperity he achieved through Bush's "trickle-down economics" theory
ADZE, what I'm saying is the unisured GET HEALTHCARE ANYWAY. Its just more convoluated, beaurectratic, and inefficnent right now.
For example, Joe the Plumber goes to the emergency room without insurance or enough cash to pay his bills. Either Medicaid paid for his services then went after his money after he received them (where the medical bills lien could have come from), or the hospital itself privately sued him, all the while driving up costs for us all. If Joe the Plumber, being uninsured, had a more substantial injury that costs tens of thousands of dollars ... guess what? He's going bankrupt and Medicaid is footing the bill. Those in the higher tax brackets are paying for it moreso than the middle and lower classes already.
If Joe gets F-ed up in a car accident, he's going to the hospital and we're all F#&*ed because McCain's new campaign centerpiece is irresponsible and didn't buy himself insurance with the prosperity he achieved through Bush's "trickle-down economics" theory
Well since I have never been hired by a poor person It's fair to say that "trickle Up economic's" is a Liberal myth.
Gotcha. BTW- Your example can be used for Corporate Taxes (sorta). Corporations don't pay taxes. NoBAma will raise Corporate taxes (which are the second highest in the world already) and the Corporations subsequiently pass that along to us as price increases. In effect we pay corporate taxes.
Re: 3rd Presidential Debate
