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We're discussing Bail Out Systems


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Old 10-05-2007, 11:13 AM   #1
 
zeroone on Bail Out Systems - Nassau FD Rant
 
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So it seems that NYS has pased a law that requires all employers of FF's to supply the FF's with a bail out system. Was signed into law in August with a 60 day implamentation period. Now I was told that at a recent Fire Districts Meeting, the law is being re-written - to hold off on making any purchases.

Has anyone done any research on a system yet?

My dept has recently begun to replace turnout gear, going with morning pride and having the gemtor belts included. We added the belts since it is $4 more to have the loops sewn in now, as opposed to almost $100 ( as we were told) later on. Since the guys to the west of us did the research already so we will more than likely go with that system.


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Old 10-05-2007, 12:42 PM   #2
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Signal 12 on Bail Out Systems - Nassau FD Rant
 
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Nys Law For Pss Ropes

Had infro from 590 - gave it to zerotwo and he said he would pass it on to you. The FDNY previously used the type of harness your talking about, and then got a newer version to make intergrating the PSS more comfortable.

Eventually this will be something that will have to be tackled, but it is not going to be done easily, or overnight. Firefighters that have been through this training multiple times and then have been in situations where they needed the system, have hesitated in some instances, and also not even used it. There is a lot more to this training than most people realize.


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Old 10-05-2007, 03:40 PM   #3
 
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$100 to have the loops sewn in? do they use gold thread?


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Old 10-05-2007, 05:14 PM   #4
 
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The FDNY system is simple and easy to use. The only draw back is the carry bag is a bit cumbersome. They are field testing a different bag that runs horizontally accross your back attached to your harness belt.


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Old 10-05-2007, 05:15 PM   #5
 
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Also for those of you using bib type pants putting the loops and harness on them might be a bit awkward.


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Old 10-05-2007, 06:24 PM   #6
 
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Frankie Lau would charge you $400!


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Old 10-05-2007, 06:54 PM   #7
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Does the bail out kids, integrated into the scba fall under this categorizes??


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Old 10-05-2007, 06:59 PM   #8
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Signal 12 on Bail Out Systems - Nassau FD Rant
 
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The current PSS is simple to use to those who have drilled on it at The Rock, at tactical training and also in quarters. The PSS training also hits on fire conditions and teaching members where to be and where not to be, and where they can place themselves; while waiting for the line to move in - in hopes that they do not have to bail. Cumbersome, it's like carrying a second base bag around with you on your right hip. And because the job switched to the newer model harness, it is going to be unique to see how departments with the older type models set up their system. When the system first came out almost two years ago, there were numerous legit injuries as a result of the training. I'm curious to see how the average New York State firefighter will adapt to this system and using it - just the flexibility and manauvering expected of the user would be taxing on many peoples bodies. This could end up in another classification of firefighters ... Interior, Exterior but can wear a mask, just not fit enough to use a PSS, and then just plain Exterior. It's not a knock or a dig to anyone, but just the initial indoc when the FDNY PSS was introduced - the entire day of rolling out windows, with just gear, then with a mask, then on air, and now they are doing it with blacked out face pieces ... and at various heights ... and members in the filed have still not yet deployed the system ... it's going to be unique to see how the rest of the state complies with this.


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Old 10-05-2007, 09:22 PM   #9
 
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The bail out system intergrated into the SCBA is a nice idea although I did not care for it when I looked at it. Plus if you forget to make up your waist strap and have to bail..............


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Old 10-06-2007, 02:18 PM   #10
 
EngineDude on Bail Out Systems - Nassau FD Rant
 
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In my dept we are begining to integrate the FFRED system onto the scba's. This system wraps around the back and uses the harness of the scba. The bottom belt is different due to this system and it is difficult to get a tight pull on the waist without reopening it, tightening it a little more and then clipping the dual action clip. I personally dislike like it due to the small carbiener to attach the webbing to and the extra weight of the belt. I also think it will effect the ability to do some reduced profiles because of the clip on the waist belt.


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Old 10-16-2007, 11:34 PM   #11
 
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the FDNY system is fairly easy to use. but its just like everything else. you are goin to have to use it and use it and use it to feel comfortable with it. there is alot of training that goes into it and it is alil tough on the body. rolling out windows 5, 6 times in a day blacked out is not that easy. it def takes a toll on your body. and i think you will see more guys try to become class b firefighters just so they dont have to deal with it. its not like teaching someone to single slide. i dont kknow if it would work around here.


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Old 10-29-2007, 01:26 PM   #12
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Signal 12 on Bail Out Systems - Nassau FD Rant
 
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New York Life Safety Rope Law Met With Skepticism


Updated: 10-23-2007 07:34:51 AM


E-MAIL THIS STORY PRINT THIS STORY


PAUL PELUSO
Firehouse.Com News




Courtesy of The NY Post/G.N. Miller


This aerial view shows the rear of the fire building where the six 'Black Sunday' firefighters were forced to jump, Jan. 23, 2005.





Courtesy of WABC-TV


Nine months after the tragedy, the FDNY re-issued the ropes after they stopped providing them to firefighters in 2000.



The Black Sunday fire -- the Jan. 23, 2005 Bronx blaze that claimed the lives of FDNY Firefighters Lt. John Bellew and Lt. Curtis Meyran -- was "a major turning point in the fire service."

That's what Jeff Cool, then a firefighter at Rescue 3, one of six trapped in the apartment building that day, recently said about the fire. Ladder 27's Eugene Stalowski and Brendan Cawley bailed from a window much like Bellew and Meyran did, but survived.

Luckily for Cool and Rescue 3 colleague Joseph DiBernardo, they had use of a life safety rope which Cool had bought from Firehouse Expo in Baltimore the year before.

During a presentation at Firehouse Expo in 2006, Cool said, "If that rope wasn't there, we would've been dead."

Nine months after the tragedy, the FDNY re-issued the ropes after they stopped providing them to firefighters in 2000.

This past August, New York's Governor Eliot Spitzer signed a law requiring employers to provide firefighters throughout New York, excluding the FDNY, with life safety ropes.

The law went into effect Oct. 1, but has been met with skepticism by some.

"It kind of seems like a knee jerk reaction, to be honest," Cool said, adding that he doesn't understand how it will be enforced since it's an unfunded bill.

"(The politicians) know that I'm less than happy with what they're doing," he said.

Gordon Wren Jr., the Director Rockland County Fire Services -- which is staffed fully by volunteers -- also isn't sold on the new law.

"I think their intentions are good," he said. "But there's no money to implement it."

"It's a very complex issue and is something that should be done," he said, noting that many responsible departments in the area had already begun providing firefighters with ropes.

Allan Richards, an aide to Assembly member Susan V. John who was the main sponsor of the bill, said the issue of money is being looked into.

Richards confirmed there is no funding for the law, but that the state Senate and Assembly are aware of the burden placed on smaller career and volunteer departments.

He said that both are "looking for ways in upcoming budget cycle" to limit the burden placed on those departments by finding ways to fund the law.

He said that according to what he was told, the systems would cost somewhere between $225 and $250 per system.

According to a letter sent out to fire service officials by New York Department of Labor Assistant Director David Ruppert, a "pretty good rig" can be bought for under $100.

The letter also stated that all systems must meet the NFPA 1983 standard for life safety ropes.

Sherri Raponi, a Senior Safety and Health Consultant for the DOL, explained the implementation of the new law.

"We're having employers first assess the need for the systems," she said. "If you are a small department and you are fighting fires for a two-story structure, there shouldn't be a need for those systems."

Cool brought up the point that if areas with only two-story buildings are not required to follow the law, buildings -- such as his home -- which are two stories in the front but more like three in the back, will go unaccounted for.

Raponi said that to her knowledge the issue has not been looked into.

In Ruppert's letter, the assessment also included determining which firefighters would need a life safety rope system, stating that "Individuals who don't enter the building and would never be expected to need the equipment" would not be required to be outfitted with the rope by law.

Tom Wutz, Chief of the New York Fire Services Bureau, said that it is his understanding that when the state Senate goes back into session, the start date of the law will be amended to allow departments to better assess their needs.

Although the law is technically now in effect, the Department of Labor doesn't fine employers off the bat, Raponi said. The first step would be to conduct an inspections after which if failed the department would be given a date to comply. If regulations are not met by the follow-up inspection, a fine would be levied.

Roponi said the fine could reach up to $200 per day for a serious violation to lower than $50 per day for less serious violations.


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Old 10-29-2007, 04:10 PM   #13
 
zeroone on Bail Out Systems - Nassau FD Rant
 
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The FSA is currently distributing a memo in regards to this law.


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Old 02-01-2008, 08:08 PM   #14
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LJFD75 on Bail Out Systems - Nassau FD Rant
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EngineDude View Post
In my dept we are begining to integrate the FFRED system onto the scba's. This system wraps around the back and uses the harness of the scba. The bottom belt is different due to this system and it is difficult to get a tight pull on the waist without reopening it, tightening it a little more and then clipping the dual action clip. I personally dislike like it due to the small carbiener to attach the webbing to and the extra weight of the belt. I also think it will effect the ability to do some reduced profiles because of the clip on the waist belt.

it does.... espcially with gloves on its very hard to reclip the buckel


the pouch also blocks one of our pockets so if you wanted to get tools or a knife out it would be hard especially with gloves on


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Old 02-04-2008, 12:19 PM   #15
 
IPTRUCKEE on Bail Out Systems - Nassau FD Rant
 
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the bail out system they use looks to be pretty effective. a brooklyn ff bailed out the other day (1st time the system was actually used) and made it to the ground safe. all of us As in my dept just got new gear, all up to date drd, extra pockets, harness loops,etc. we got all the bells n whistles & now we are in the process of getting bail out systems and harnesses for the truckees.

in my opinion, if you have a bail out system, train on it! train yourself with different situations. ex. what are you going to "hook" on to? window sills these days will not hold you! youll jump and the sill will follow you. you might want to break the wall just under the sill and hook the wood that is there. or you remove your pack and hook to that. or hook to anything in the room large enough to hold your weight and cant fit through the window, ex dresser,bed,halligan,axe,etc


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Old 02-06-2008, 03:20 AM   #16
 
LB72FD on Bail Out Systems - Nassau FD Rant
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IPTRUCKEE View Post
t

what are you going to "hook" on to? window sills these days will not hold you! youll jump and the sill will follow you. you might want to break the wall just under the sill and hook the wood that is there. or you remove your pack and hook to that. or hook to anything in the room large enough to hold your weight and cant fit through the window, ex dresser,bed,halligan,axe,etc
in a training exercise on sunday we thought the same about certain window sills and the instuctor showed us that most sills will hold because of how the weight is distributed. of course if you have the time to secure to something your more comfortable with go for it but the whole idea of even using this is because you need to go now


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Old 02-06-2008, 11:30 AM   #17
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Signal 12 on Bail Out Systems - Nassau FD Rant
 
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It's only a matter of time before NYS Department of Labor becomes a "visitor" to the volunteer fire service, similar in ways how OSHA might stop by.

Once all is sorted out, CLASSIFICATION of firefighters will be re-defined if not already defined in every department that complies with this law.

You might be able to wear a mask, but if your too fat too roll out of a window or just not physically able to roll out of a window ... your not going to be able to remain an "INTERIOR" firefighter.

Chances are the people who will complain the most about this will be the people who will have the think hard about the last time they actaully had a mask on. But it is reality.

Hopefully the training that is associated with and often comes with (both in municipal departments and in the private sector/industry) "bail out" training will be utilized by departments in this County to better prepare their members to RECOGNIZE the fire conditions that warrant "bailing out."

This system isn't the answer, but it is a step in the right direction. One of these systems recently got a member out of harms way, but he was suspended in the air and had to wait for an aerial device to come to his aid. Had the fire been below him (most situations warranting a "bail out" are when members are operating on the florr above), he would have roasted.

Just teaching firefighters how to hang out a window with one arm and one leg ... until the engine can make the push, that tactic alone should be taught to all firefighters as well. Have your personal safety system anchored and be ready to go, but if you can hold on safely while the engine company cools things down, why "bail out" if you don't have to?


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