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Ok I dont want to MMQ but I have a question. Now i cant stand putting the FAST to work and calling in another team but most departments do that. With that being said if you were to put them to work wouldnt you want your standby ladder/engine whatever it may be come in as your new FAST (considering they are capable of course)? Why would we want to add another department on the list of responding agencies to cover our ass, when we are already 8-10 minutes into operation???
Sorry had to vent....... whats everyones opinions? does any dept out there do it the right way and keep their FAST fast? etc etc.....
Its a dept by dept and fire by fire basis. Its all the OIC's choice no matter how ya look at it.
On that note, why cant you make the 5th due Engine at the scene the FAST unit? Do you feel more comfy with a truck or a rescue?
Are Engine guys not trained in firefighter removal? And if so, why not?
EVERY firefighter should be trained in FAST operations. No bones about it.
True.
But, what about in departments where members only ride their rigs? The engine guys may have taken the FSA class and have a basic knowledge, but I doubt it is as good as the rescue or truck companies, who know that they are going to be called in for FAST. How often is an engine requested or sent for FAST?
The second issue is equipment. It'd be safe to say that most engines (with squads and quints being the exception) don't have the tools that a FAST team needs. I guess they could use the tools off a rescue or truck, but who knows if they have been maintained, have gas, different features, etc. If I were put in that situation I can't say I'd be comfortable or confident.
But, what about in departments where members only ride their rigs? The engine guys may have taken the FSA class and have a basic knowledge, but I doubt it is as good as the rescue or truck companies, who know that they are going to be called in for FAST. How often is an engine requested or sent for FAST?
The second issue is equipment. It'd be safe to say that most engines (with squads and quints being the exception) don't have the tools that a FAST team needs. I guess they could use the tools off a rescue or truck, but who knows if they have been maintained, have gas, different features, etc. If I were put in that situation I can't say I'd be comfortable or confident.
Just playing devil's advocate.
True too, but...
It shouldnt be an issue.
..When was the last time a K-12 was used to rescue a downed firefighter in Nassau County?
..If you're engine isnt carrying a set of irons and a maul, some hooks and an extra pack, (the stuff we all used before the "FAST Equipment list" was assembled back in 1998 or so), then ya should
...Not breaking chops, just that if your in an Engine co, and one of your guys goes down, are you REALLY gonna wait for your FAS Team to come in an scoop him up?
...In addition, if your pack has a RIT attachment to it, why is anyone wearing one without knowing how its utilized??
..Firefighter down means just that. Your operation goes from "minimize property damage" to "rescue brother"....
..Engine, Ladder, Rescue, Squad- doesnt matter what company you're in- the guy thats down doesnt care.
...Engines are NEVER used as FAST's around here, but in many other parts of the country, they are. The reason why- no one wants to.
The terms "we never go as the FAS Team" or "we're in an Engine so we dont have to know that stuff" are just excuses not to train.
...When people learn how a truck co in their own dept operates even though they're in an engine, or vice versa, thats how fires go more smoothly.
I personally like riding the engine, but no problems with the truck work. I agree that every firefighter should have FAST training for if one of our own go down, and M/A or truck isn't there yet. My philosophy is knowledge is something that no one can take away and makes you worth more.
For your "typical" house fire around here, I would leave the original FAST in place until the operation is completed. If you need another truck to come in for relief/overhaul, let the standby truck come in and do it. It has been discussed here before that is takes 20 minutes of more to properly change over from one FAST to another with the second having knowledge of the operation. For a "typical" house fire, keep it simple. In a situation with excessive heat or cold, maybe consider having two FASTs rotate in and out every hour or so. If the job really calls for the FAST to be put to work right away (again not for typical overhaul, etc.) then maybe you can designate an engine or some other unit on scene to be a temporary FAST until the next one is in place. Another thing to consider when we replace FASTs do we have some period of overlap where the old one is still on while the new one gets acquainted with the scene. In my experience, as soon as the new guys start walking up the outgoing FAST is running away if they even waited for them to be on scene.
how do deparments get away with riding only your company rigs? Your a truck guy and you have a crew but the engine only has 1 for the back. You rap out a 32 rather then the truck guys hop on?
..When was the last time a K-12 was used to rescue a downed firefighter in Nassau County?
..If you're engine isnt carrying a set of irons and a maul, some hooks and an extra pack, (the stuff we all used before the "FAST Equipment list" was assembled back in 1998 or so), then ya should
...Not breaking chops, just that if your in an Engine co, and one of your guys goes down, are you REALLY gonna wait for your FAS Team to come in an scoop him up?
...In addition, if your pack has a RIT attachment to it, why is anyone wearing one without knowing how its utilized??
..Firefighter down means just that. Your operation goes from "minimize property damage" to "rescue brother"....
..Engine, Ladder, Rescue, Squad- doesnt matter what company you're in- the guy thats down doesnt care.
...Engines are NEVER used as FAST's around here, but in many other parts of the country, they are. The reason why- no one wants to.
The terms "we never go as the FAS Team" or "we're in an Engine so we dont have to know that stuff" are just excuses not to train.
...When people learn how a truck co in their own dept operates even though they're in an engine, or vice versa, thats how fires go more smoothly.
you better not stop doing your job, especailly if your in the the engine. The best thing that could happen....is the fire goes out. Thats what the FAST team is for.
along those lines and what MFD said above...the fire suppression operation should continue...
isnt that the whole point of having a seperate team just for FF removal?
while I agree that keeping the same group as FAST has benefits... you would also have to consider FF fatigue and lets face it the longer you stand there your mind will start to wander...you will BS with people...i know that shouldnt happen but it does...wouldnt it be prudent to rotate more often (no specific timeframe) to avoid all those and keep fresh FFs at the ready?
TL what you are saying is a separate issue, if your FAST, life saving guys outside that are protecting your men inside, is BSing having a grand old time and not paying attention, well sir its time to get a new FAST. But after realizing that take that team off of the MA policy. the problem is that many dont take it seriously, we have been fortunate enough that it hasnt been used often if at all in our departments. Everyone must understand the importance of that team.
Second point you were saying about fatigue etc. well if you know they been standing at the ready for a half hour keep that in consideration, get a new FAST and EWPLACE them, not put them to work and play Russian roulette to see if XYZ dept is going to be on the road soon if at all with your new LIFE SAVING TEAM aka FAST.
There are so many things that unfortunately have to happen for people to get it, well jeopardizing a life is not something any of us should want to sacrifice. Lets get with the program ICs and remember when the family sues YOUR in court, everything was YOUR call, and its going to be YOUR guilt to live with.
Sorry for the rant and i know this topic has been beaten to death but reading about some of these jobs, and being at some of these jobs, this FAST thing is not a joke.
"...Not breaking chops, just that if your in an Engine co, and one of your guys goes down, are you REALLY gonna wait for your FAS Team to come in an scoop him up?"
Thats exactly what the FAST or RIT is for so every one can keep doing their job and focus on doing it to the best of their ability and if some one goes down that team is gona get em... NO MATTER WHAT.
What is the problem with changing the FAST team. If they have been caught up to speed on the scene and then go to work. Maybe a fresh set of eyes will see something that everyone else missed.
ok...so the point you are making then is the "lag" time between 1st FAST going to work and their replacements arriving?...well ...in regards to that... one thought that seems to be gaining some momentum is 2 FASTS...1 "on deck" and 1 on "double deck"
"...Not breaking chops, just that if your in an Engine co, and one of your guys goes down, are you REALLY gonna wait for your FAS Team to come in an scoop him up?"
Thats exactly what the FAST or RIT is for so every one can keep doing their job and focus on doing it to the best of their ability and if some one goes down that team is gona get em... NO MATTER WHAT.
I agree to disagree...
..Until you're lifted out by your shoulder straps- then maybe you'll agree....
.. I owe my life (twice) to a good backup brother/team....
...Stairs collapse. Rooms flash. (PS theres a big diff between a flash and a roll)....
...If my backup or control brother "waited" for a FAS Team, I would be posting this from the skies above. FSA is fun- real life is real deal....
...I'm not demeaning RIT/FAST in any way shape or form, I just simply offer the point that 9 out of 10 incidents that involve "firefighter down" are during the "initial" attack....and 8 out of 10 brothers are taken/removed from "precarious positions" by their team, not by an RIT/FAST....
...We all have a job to do. That job is WE ALL GO HOME. I personally dont give a shit about John Q Public's house or possesions....
...I am my brothers keeper.
...Always remember you can replace anything BUT a life- ESPECIALLY a BROTHERS life....
...In closure, if ALL members of the FIRE SERVICE are TRAINED in RIT/FAST, it will only benefit you and your brothers if and when you have to use it.
Call yourself an Engine, Truck, Squad, Rescue, yada yada.
Last time I checked it said "FD" somewhere on your gear.
There is a big difference between seeing something happen right in front of you and doing the right thing and having something happen away from you at a scene and giving up your assignment. If someone goes down in front of you of course you are going to react. If you are on the line in another part of the building and someone goes down elsewhere are you going to abandon the line? The best thing to do for the brother in that case is to continue your job and put the fire out.
changing FASTs
