[Navy076996]

I see your logic, but helmets are the last thing I'm worried about. I'm worried about that rabbit tool under the seat, the pair of irons sitting on the floor, and the air packs that aren't strapped in. Getting hit in the face with a helmet would definitely suck, don't get me wrong, but with all of the other crap we stuff in our cabs I feel like it's just a feel good regulation.

[Pipe Major]

Originally Posted by ADZE07

OK,we loose 25 guys a year to fire apparatus accidents because 1/6th of us are likely to get into a fatal accident while responding as compared to driving to Mom's.

Nearly 95% of LODD while responding have non-belted firefighters.

Is it fair for me to wear a seat belt and for you to choose not to? Is it OK for you to hurt me while ping-ponging around the cab recklessly?

Is Strap in and Stay in the right protocol? Fire trucks are made to take a hit... can't protect you if you take a ride out the windshield. Chicago had two seperate incidents just weeks apart in 2007.

Is it OK to fall out of a fire truck while responding? Is it Ok to be run over after falling out? Come on, I thought we were in the helping business... That sounds alot like it is OK or heroic to die in the line of duty.

For those planning on buying a new Fire Apparatus under the forthcoming new NFPA Standard, will see helmet cabinets for each seat as you will no longer be allowed to wear your helmet in the seat during response and they must be secured in a box, due to flying helmets in the cab.


I'm interested in hearing what you guy's have on the books (SOG's). Do your protocols have teeth? Or do your officer's ignore what you have on the book's with a wink and a nod while responding? PM me if you feel uncomfortable sharing with the public.

I believe we choose on an Ala Carte basis or rationalize why we shouldnt adopt certain change's because of "tradition" or some old excuse's like "We're only Volly's" or F the City guys we do things "OUR WAY" etc..

PIPEMAJOR~ Do you draw the line with seatbelts? Curiously, do you have ZERO tolerance regarding alcohol and responding to calls? Or are your feelings as strong by having zero tolerance for drinking and driving dept apparatus before or after Parades? Do you close your eyes to booze on dept apparatus? The safety & Public image issues are at least as important to seatbelt usage. Most likely more so.

I absolutely agree with you. Zero tolerance for drinking and driving whether it's responding, parades, whatever. It's illegal and it's dangerous. I will be the first to admit I've done my share of stupid things in my younger days. I like to think that as I've gotten older, I've gotten wiser and I've learned from my mistakes. Just trying to keep the next generation safe, that's all.

[ADZE07]

Very interesting........

I understand the reluctance to discuss this topic in a public forum. I would wager that very few departments in Nassau have SOG's concerning mandatory seatbelt usage or enforce them if they do.

This goes a long way to explain why I read thread after thread dedicated to rants about being snubbed for mutual aid, training standards, physical standards, Fast requests etc. If we cant comply with simple safety issues how will we ever solve the complex ones.

We post complaints asking why XYZ Commission hasn’t settled the problem.

The answer is right there in front of us. We're to blame. No Commission or their appointee's will ever be able settle our differences until we are willing to accept standards from outside (if need be) of our individual departments. Yup, that means letting go of some traditions and being selfless instead of selfish. We have to stop making excuses and rationalizations to water down our standards because we're having trouble some days with manpower.

Anyone apply for a vehicle grant this year? The requirement for the grant is that you meet the NFPA 1002 Standard for driving, which includes physicals to meet the 1582 Standard.(Meaning you shouldn’t be on the rig if you're to fat to buckle your seatbelt. Even geared up in the back!)

How many salty vets in your place have a F NFPA attitude. I have a few.

And I'll bet all that FEMA got was a bunch of bitching from Chief's all over about how unreasonable that is. Imagine, holding our feet to the fire on training and fitness...

This business is evolving. I hope we're smart enough to keep up or else we go the way of the Doe doe bird.

But this is an argument for another day.

[dawreckingstick]

Copied below are excerpts from the 2006 & 2005 USFA Report. In 2007 there were 24 response deaths, however the final detail report is not yet available. I'd like to see serious injury reports as well to get a more encompassing picture of this issue.

I believe there's a big focus on seatbelt use or lack of because it's believed to be a low hanging fruit and easily addressed unlike poor staffing (see Detroit). However, take a close look at the 2005 & 2006 details below and you can draw your own conclusions.

Does it make sense to have an apparatus seat belt policy and enforce it – YES --- do we need child/fireman proof gadgets & gizmos to ensure were wearing them NO. Along with recent additions of many of the other gadgets created -- based upon assumptions. Sometimes the issue is not what we're trying to accomplish or rectify but how we go about it.

Stay Safe


2006 Vehicle Crashes
After stress or overexertion, the perennial cause of fatal injury resulting in the most firefighter fatalities is vehicle crashes. In many cases, these deaths appear to have been preventable (Figure 10).
• Nineteen firefighters were killed in 2006 as a result of vehicle crashes.
• Eight of these deaths occurred in three aircraft crashes.
• Eleven firefighters were killed in nonaircraft vehicle crashes:
– Five crashes involved water tenders.
– Five crashes involved the firefighter’s personal vehicle.
– One crash involved a fire department pickup truck.
• No seatbelt was used in three of the four cases where seatbelts were available and the status of their use is known.

2005 Vehicle Crashes
As in most years, the second leading cause of fatal injury for firefighters who died in 2005 was vehicle crashes (see Figure 10):
• Twenty-five firefighters were killed in 2005 as a result of vehicle crashes.
• Seatbelts were used only in 8 of the 13 cases where the status of the firefighter’s seatbelt is known. This number does not include seatbelt use on watercraft, aircraft, or ATV’s.
• Five firefighters were killed in crashes while wearing their seatbelts.
Additional information about firefighter deaths in 2005 as the result of vehicle crashes includes the following:
• Three firefighters who were employees of a private aircraft firefighting company were killed in the crash of their aircraft during a training exercise in California.
• Three wildland firefighters were killed in the crash of a helicopter during a prescribed burn in Texas. The crew had been assigned to drop flammable spheres to initiate the burn when they experienced an unknown problem and crashed.
• Five firefighters were killed in crashes involving their vehicles:
− Three crashes occurred while firefighters were responding to emergencies.
− One crash occurred while the firefighter was returning from a class: A truck crossed the center line of the road and struck the firefighter’s car.
− One crash occurred as the firefighter drove from home to the fire station in response to an offshift callback.
The five personal vehicle crash deaths in 2005 bring to 64 the number of firefighter deaths in personal vehicle crashes since 1990. Many of these deaths involved excessive speed and lack of seatbelt use.
• Four fatal crashes involved the death of the driver of a fire department tanker (tender):
− Two of the tanker crashes involved mechanical failure. One was attributed to a blowout and the other was attributed to a wheel falling off the vehicle.
− One crash involved a tractor-trailer tanker.
Four fatal crashes involved engine or pumper apparatus:
− A California firefighter was killed when his engine company was involved in a crash in bad weather while responding to an incident.
− A Georgia firefighter was killed in the crash of the engine that he was driving in response to a mutual-aid incident.
− Two firefighters were killed in separate incidents when their apparatus were involved in crashes with tractor-trailer trucks.
• A New York firefighter was killed when the rescue truck he was driving back to station after an incident left the roadway and crashed.
• A Missouri firefighter was killed when the car he was driving was struck at high speed by the vehicle of an individual who was fleeing law enforcement.
• A Kansas firefighter was killed when the brush truck he was driving collided with a tanker responding to the same incident.
• A firefighter who was a passenger in a rescue boat was killed when the fire department boat collided with another boat on a dark waterway.
• A Nevada wildland firefighter was killed in an ATV rollover.
• A Missouri firefighter was run over by a push truck at a race track after the vehicle went out of control.

[DEK1682]

Just received the 2008 chiefs orders/ SOPs..... the seatbelt topic was featured very high on the list....