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Thanks to Paul Combs for allowing his work to appear on the Rant.
(Seatbelt discussion threads merged...)
This is a re-post of a thread that I started in the EMS section. My question wasnt EMS specific. I was interested to hear what your policies are concerning all apparatus.
Curiously, I was wondering what your policies are, if any, concerning wearing seatbelts while responding to calls on Department apparatus? Some manufaturers have built in bells and whistles which prohibit the rig from moving without all seatbelts being used if the seat is occupied. Their are other warning systems as well. What are your thoughts? What do you do?
Last edited by Rant Boss : 05-15-2008 at 10:32 AM.
I feel the NFPA and our insurance carriers have gone a little too far with seatbelt enforcement. I understand the safety issue, I'm willing to try anything to keep us as safe as possible. But we are in an inherently dangerous profession, aren't we?
The chauffeur? No question, he/she should be wearing the belt. Any time the rig is out on detail, no question, everyone should buckle up. Your rig is on the highway going 45-60 MPH? You should be belted in. You don't have a patient in the back of your bus? Strap in.
But what about the crew getting ready while responding to the run? I know the FEDs want us strapped in. Heck, the next "recommendation" down the pike will be no more SCBAs in the crew seats. That's right, they want you bottling-up after you pull up on the scene. Does anyone else see the problem with that? Put yourself in a homeowner's shoes. Imagine the anxiety and the frustration you may feel. That four-eight minutes between telling 9-1-1 you can't find your daughter in your flame-filled home and the first engine on the scene must feel like an eternity. Now the crew is delayed another two or three minutes putting their bottles on before stretching any lines or going in to save your family!
It must be pretty easy for our representatives and the good people at NFPA and insurances companies (such as VFIS) to introduce such legislation without actually being in the shoes of our neighbors or us.
I open this challenge to anyone (especially any VFIS reps/NFPA reps/politicians) who's willing to put in the work:
-Count the average daily amount of fire/ems runs nationally.
-From that count the average daily amount of apparatus responding to those runs.
-Take from that the average daily amount of MVAs which occur while apparatus are responding to those runs (property damage AND injury involved).
-Take from that the average daily amount of those MVAs which involve injury to any and all parties.
-Take from that the average daily amount of those MVAs which involve injury to members of service (FFs and EMTs).
Now take that last number and calculate what percent of the first two numbers it is (the number of runs & the number of apparatus on the road). I haven't done it, but my guess is less than 1%. Are we really spending our time and resources on something that has a < 1% effect? Couldn't we be a little more proactive in other aspects of our jobs? JMO, sorry it's really long.
With fire apparatus occupant fatalities of around 25 per year -- out of 1,000,000 million firefighters. (2.5 per 100,000)
So we're what, 1/6th as likely to die in a responding fire truck as driving to visit Mom on mother's day?
What's the problem? Is our perspective skewed from reality on what we worry about? Then I saw this cartoon from another site an wondered if my thinking is off base?
Think about this.......................you're traveling in an oversized vehicle...........you're probably going faster than the cars and trucks around you. You'll be passing red lights, maybe crossing into oncoming traffic. You might make a few sudden stops.
Why wouldn't you wear a seatbelt?
As for the few seconds it might take to unbuckle.....................you don't do anyone any good if you don't even get there.
Think about this.......................you're traveling in an oversized vehicle...........you're probably going faster than the cars and trucks around you. You'll be passing red lights, maybe crossing into oncoming traffic. You might make a few sudden stops.
Why wouldn't you wear a seatbelt?
As for the few seconds it might take to unbuckle.....................you don't do anyone any good if you don't even get there.
ESU....
I agree with you. I'm contemplating a strategy to "Implement & enforce" seatbelt usage. Sometime's one has to use a little suger to fight 125 years of tradition. Thats why Im wondering what other departments have on the books as far as SOG etc.
Think about this.......................you're traveling in an oversized vehicle...........you're probably going faster than the cars and trucks around you. You'll be passing red lights, maybe crossing into oncoming traffic. You might make a few sudden stops.
Why wouldn't you wear a seatbelt?
As for the few seconds it might take to unbuckle.....................you don't do anyone any good if you don't even get there.
That's fine, but think about this: We go into burning buildings. Isn't that dangerous, too? You can be as PPE'd as you want, but sometimes shit happens. Could it be preventable? Sure it could. We could NOT go in and thus prevent an accident inside the burning building, the same as wearing a seatbelt in a firetruck.
That's fine, but think about this: We go into burning buildings. Isn't that dangerous, too? You can be as PPE'd as you want, but sometimes shit happens. Could it be preventable? Sure it could. We could NOT go in and thus prevent an accident inside the burning building, the same as wearing a seatbelt in a firetruck.
Would you go into that burning building WITHOUT any or all of the PPE available to you? Yes, sometimes shit happens, but why not minimize the possibilities as much as possible.
You can come up with all the what-if's you like...................seat belts save lives, you're foolish if it's there for you and you don't use it.
Fine, but the other problem is accessibility. When wearing bunker gear, a radio, handlight, search rope, etc., it can be almost impossible to wear a seatbelt on top of everything.
Like I said, I think the chauffeur should always buckle up, as should anyone in the rig when on detail or even returning from an alarm. And no one should stand up in our monstrous cabs, either! But as for responding, I can't agree. I think the crew preparing itself for the job is paramount.
I feel the NFPA and our insurance carriers have gone a little too far with seatbelt enforcement. I understand the safety issue, I'm willing to try anything to keep us as safe as possible. But we are in an inherently dangerous profession, aren't we?
The chauffeur? No question, he/she should be wearing the belt. Any time the rig is out on detail, no question, everyone should buckle up. Your rig is on the highway going 45-60 MPH? You should be belted in. You don't have a patient in the back of your bus? Strap in.
But what about the crew getting ready while responding to the run? I know the FEDs want us strapped in. Heck, the next "recommendation" down the pike will be no more SCBAs in the crew seats. That's right, they want you bottling-up after you pull up on the scene. Does anyone else see the problem with that? Put yourself in a homeowner's shoes. Imagine the anxiety and the frustration you may feel. That four-eight minutes between telling 9-1-1 you can't find your daughter in your flame-filled home and the first engine on the scene must feel like an eternity. Now the crew is delayed another two or three minutes putting their bottles on before stretching any lines or going in to save your family!
It must be pretty easy for our representatives and the good people at NFPA and insurances companies (such as VFIS) to introduce such legislation without actually being in the shoes of our neighbors or us.
I open this challenge to anyone (especially any VFIS reps/NFPA reps/politicians) who's willing to put in the work:
-Count the average daily amount of fire/ems runs nationally.
-From that count the average daily amount of apparatus responding to those runs.
-Take from that the average daily amount of MVAs which occur while apparatus are responding to those runs (property damage AND injury involved).
-Take from that the average daily amount of those MVAs which involve injury to any and all parties.
-Take from that the average daily amount of those MVAs which involve injury to members of service (FFs and EMTs).
Now take that last number and calculate what percent of the first two numbers it is (the number of runs & the number of apparatus on the road). I haven't done it, but my guess is less than 1%. Are we really spending our time and resources on something that has a < 1% effect? Couldn't we be a little more proactive in other aspects of our jobs? JMO, sorry it's really long.
I usually do not post too often, but I must. This is without a doubt the DUMBEST ####ING argument I have EVER heard for not wearing a seatbelt. We are volleys. We know every guy in our department, many times they are our closest friends. Since 99% of all of our runs could be classified as B.S., what is the problem with saving your own ass in case of an apparatus MVA???? The argument that we can't wear the belts because of our gear/equipment is also crap! Put your SCBA, handlight, etc. on AFTER you get on scene if you can't do it while wearing your belt. Dying while trying to make a grab is the most honorable thing, we as FF's can do, but dying in a MVA while responding to a BS call is NOT!! Think of your family and friends who will know that you died or were injured for absolutely NOTHING!!!!!!!!! Wake the #### up, it is not worth it. Wear your seat belts and return home to your loved ones. If you don't deserve it, they at least do!!!
I can't believe what I'm reading. This is one of the worst arguments I've ever heard in my life!!!
Gee...I go into burning buildings. That's dangerous right? So I shouldn't wear a seatbelt. Come to think of it, maybe we should go back to riding on the back step...and going in without masks...and while I'm at it maybe I should take up smoking.
Hey, how's this for all of you math wizzes. ONE (1) is too many! Oh gee...it's only 1%. Yeah...well what if that 1% is you??? How about when the insurance companies decide not to pay full benefits to your family because you weren't wearing all of the safety equipment afforded to you, i.e. seatbelts.
How's this as an example for you.....a LODD that could have/should have been avoided. Partial ejection when the rig flipped on its side after a collision with a school bus. Let's see now....partial ejection....half in and half out. I guess the half that's out is not going to fare so well when the rig lands on top of it! Chicago Firefighter Killed after Fire Truck Collides With School Bus - Firehouse.com In The Line Of Duty
Well gee...it was only ONE guy.
Tell that to his family!
Sorry for my sarcastic tone but we consistently lose over 100 firefighters a year in this country and the number one factor year after year (non-medical) is MVAs while responding. ONE is too many. And I don't want to have to pipe at a LODD that was unnecessary. If you don't care about yourself enough to wear your seatbelt, think about the people you'll leave behind.
I feel better now. Stay Safe.
Your Loving Pipe Major
PS. Kudo's to my captain who just came out with a written policy that all members will be belted in whenever the rig is in motion. It's a new rig fully outfitted with seatbelts..not in service as of yet.
I usually do not post too often, but I must. This is without a doubt the DUMBEST ####ING argument I have EVER heard for not wearing a seatbelt. We are volleys. We know every guy in our department, many times they are our closest friends. Since 99% of all of our runs could be classified as B.S., what is the problem with saving your own ass in case of an apparatus MVA???? The argument that we can't wear the belts because of our gear/equipment is also crap! Put your SCBA, handlight, etc. on AFTER you get on scene if you can't do it while wearing your belt. Dying while trying to make a grab is the most honorable thing, we as FF's can do, but dying in a MVA while responding to a BS call is NOT!! Think of your family and friends who will know that you died or were injured for absolutely NOTHING!!!!!!!!! Wake the #### up, it is not worth it. Wear your seat belts and return home to your loved ones. If you don't deserve it, they at least do!!!
Hey Paul, guess what? It wasn't an argument, it is my opinion. If you don't like it, that's fine. I'm sure that you and everyone here who posts ALWAYS wears their seatbelts. Cool. Stay safe.
Iron...looks like your the only one with your 'opinion' posting here. Pipe Major is dead on balls correct! There are many things in our business that we can't control, wearing a seat belt is one that we can control. Wear it every run and you WILL get used to it. If you don't arrive on scene alive (or worse yet, you die while returning to quarters) you will not be helping anyone.
I do wear my belt on every run (at home and at work) and it is also SOP and a Chiefs order to do so.
Pipe, Paul, ESU......dead-on-balls accurate! Doesn't New York also have a mandatory seat belt law? (it's a question as I don't know) I know many states do and since it is a state law in our world, we enforce it for all crew members. It's not that we don't trust our drivers or crew members......but I can't say that we completely trust the "other drivers" that we have no control over. Who knows what they are thinking while driving, let alone if they will hear/see us, and how they might...or might not react.
You guys make it sound like I'm advocating negligent and haphazard tactics--I'm NOT!!!! I probably advocate, study, research, and train on more Safety & Survival techniques than many of the ranters here reading this. I never said things like don't wear your mask or let's get back on the hose bed, and I certainly NEVER said for you or anyone here to not wear a seatbelt--get that part right. You wanna wear your belt? Wear it, I'm not stopping you.
It was an opinion. You will get no further argument from me.
You guys make it sound like I'm advocating negligent and haphazard tactics--I'm NOT!!!! I probably advocate, study, research, and train on more Safety & Survival techniques than many of the ranters here reading this. I never said things like don't wear your mask or let's get back on the hose bed, and I certainly NEVER said for you or anyone here to not wear a seatbelt--get that part right. You wanna wear your belt?
Home Page Cartoon -- Seatbelts
