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ok i have been getting mixed reviews on departments and their "peaked roof" policy.. i understand that their are some advantages with cutting them... in certain situations (such as fires in the attic) and on the other hand many feel that it is a waste of manpower especially for those who send multiple packs of guys up there .. so lets hear it, whats the beef?
I think safety is the main reason peaked roof operations have become less popular. Risk vs reward. Some departments only allow peaked roof ventilations via a tower ladder bucket or aerial. Most attics fire can be extinguished by aggressively pulling the ceilings and putting it out from the floor below. A much safer and less punishing operation on the engine company.
We will use our Aerial Ladder for peak roofs. Work off of the Ladder and not on the roof. But it all depends on how peaked the roof is cause you don't want anyone to fall off. That sudden stop will hurt.
Well, I would saythe biggest issue is in private dwellings. There really is no need to vent the roof for a fire on the first or second floor, unless you have the following.
- basment fire with ballon construction
- fire located just below the roof, attic or top floor.
Even if you have basment fire with balloon const, you can always just check the attic before cutting the roof.
And if you have a 2nd floor fire or a 1st floor fire for that matter and skylights are present, take em.
And i agree with the others, use the bucket or aerial. New / lightweight const can be anywhere.
We dont go on onto peak roofs because of safety. If there is a confirmed attic fire we will cut the peak roof but only working off the bucket. Thats our procedure thats how i was tought.
Only issue you might find that hampers attic exinguishment via pulling ceilings is when homeowner puts 4 sheets of 3/4" plywood in the attic in order to store all of his stuff. Had a bowling ball miss me by a few inches a few years back. Good laugh afterwards.
Another option is to place TL bucket up to gable vent on the side(s) of the house that would expose the attic horizontally and not from above it and operate handline across the attic.
Tough to explain in the narrative form without a picture.
Take a typical A-Frame Levitt home. If you can position the TL to the Exposure 2 and 4 sides, you could open the exterior walls using a Battery Operated Recip Saw with long blade or Cutters Edge style Saw. Start at the Ridge line and Cut out the sheathing down about 3 feet. Make a big triangle. You should also open up the other side so the smoke adn shyte has someplace to go besides back in your face. It is a good idea to also minimize the manpower on the top floor in the event that all the sheetrock and insulation absorbs the water flowing and drops down. (It hurts when ceilings fall on you.)
The mention above about Lightweight Construction MUST be taken into account.
Truss Loft
Wood I-Beam
Gusset Trusses
you could open the exterior walls using a Battery Operated Recip Saw with long blade or Cutters Edge style Saw.
VERY GOOD POINT, Recently I read an article in a trade magizine where they talked about this type of horizantal vent for fires in dwellings with Knee-walls....
Sad but true too many people will either follow and order and get up on a peaked roof, or asign themselves to the task of cutting a hole in said roof just because it is something to do. Some people are hiding out on the roof, others feel that it makes them look like they are an integral part of the operation and there are still a good amount of people who feel that the act of opening a peaked roof is something that always has to be done.
There are probably two or three other threads on here about this topic.
We've adapted with the times, we've stopped riding the back step and we have our interior firefighters wearing bunker gear. Yet there are still plenty of people who still feel the need to get on the roof simply because it is just something that has always been done.
There are times when it is needed but more often than not is it NOT needed. It is not safe and it is rarely effective. When it is needed, it's needed and it needs to be done right.
What good is a vent hole on a peaked roof if it is not as close to the peak as possible? What are you venting that could not be accomplished by taking a window? Always cut a hole ona roof with the wind at your back, right? Well how effective of a vent hole are you going to make on a peaked roof when the wind is at your back? Think about it.
3x6, 4x6, 7-9-9 ... are they the holes that are needed on a peaked roof? Most people and a good amount of chiefs in this County will tell you yes. Then again at a large scale multiple dwelling fire last year, one department was making inspection holes in a roof eroneously called it a 'trench'.
The problem is the lack of fire duty, the primitive way of thinking (the whole "that's the way we've always done it" concept) and most importantly now a days ... the lack of manpower.
Anyone being sent to vent a peaked roof when the fire is not in the attic or the knee walls can be used in probably a dozen other positions/capacities; and be a lot more beneficial to the overall outcome of the incident.
To get one thing straight - I personally see no need for a pick headed axe. However they do serve a purpose on the fireground and they are useful. If some people prefer to use them then that's all good. I just think think that a pick headed axe will take up the place of a Halligan, same goes for a closet hook. But to get the topic back on track, there are still plenty of people out there who think they are 'getting it done' by cutting peaked roofs.
When Vincent Dunn gave one of his seminars and mentioned how that if a fire gets through the roof of a peaked roof private dwelling - you've pretty much lost the house; and made no mention of roof operations, the look of astonishment on the faces of so many "truckies" in the room was amazing. People who love using lines like "13 the engine and give me another can" and all that other nonsense really had the wind let out of their sails when Chief Dunn explained his theory on fires in peaked roof private dwellings.
Maybe if the fire service concentrated more on operating on the fire floor, and above the fire; primarily - the tactics being discussed would be more effective. If the fire isn't on the top floor of a peaked roof private dwelling, than what is being accomplished by cutting a hole in the roof BEFORE searching the floor above the fire? Likewise if the fire is under the roof, then the roof most likely needs to be open. So it's not so much about 'getting the roof' when there is a peaked roof - but more so about staging the members where they would be most effective.
Just because something has been done a certain way for years doesn't always mean it's right. There are people who have been pumping fire apparatus' for 20 years, and supplying ALL hand lines at 150 psi. ALL hand lines. Just because something has been done a certain way forever doesn't mean that it's right.
Not for nuthin, but are you kidding me? try telling the nozzle man in a attic fire of a private dwelling that we cant get anyone to the roof cause some idiot who works for the city says that they dont do that. I know about the whole risk vs reward thing, and i totally agree. but in this county, and i hate to admit it, we have something like 39 tower ladders and 20 something aerials. you cant tell me that there is no advantage to venting a peaked roof P/D that has no attic vents and very little natural ventilation. lets go back to the basics, put up roof ladders, use the "hooks" that come with it, and cut it. wether it be manual or with a chainsaw. BTW, forget the K12, it doesnt belong up on a peaked roof and anyone who tells you different is a moroon!
Not for nuthin, but are you kidding me? try telling the nozzle man in a attic fire of a private dwelling that we cant get anyone to the roof cause some idiot who works for the city says that they dont do that. I know about the whole risk vs reward thing, and i totally agree. but in this county, and i hate to admit it, we have something like 39 tower ladders and 20 something aerials. you cant tell me that there is no advantage to venting a peaked roof P/D that has no attic vents and very little natural ventilation. lets go back to the basics, put up roof ladders, use the "hooks" that come with it, and cut it. wether it be manual or with a chainsaw. BTW, forget the K12, it doesnt belong up on a peaked roof and anyone who tells you different is a moroon!
Aside from making a dig at a career firefighter(s) ... you got the point bro. In an ATTIC fire, it is an acceptable practice to vent a peaked roof. And I don't know how many roofs you've been on, but if your implying that the cutter's edge/vent master/even the piece of garbage Echo Quick-Vent is better for cutting a peaked roof - then I definitly question how many roofs you've been on simply because the depth control issue with those typse of saws. Either way, you've got the point - an attic fire is an acceptable time to open up a peaked roof. However, it wasn't too long ago that we watched live footage via satelite of a TOWER LADDER company cut a tree down so that they could get into position for a defensive tactic ... so don't always bank on the premise that a tower ladder will be available for use as a work platform.
Just keep in mind that if your on a peaked roof and fire is not below you ... 9 times out of 10 you might want to re-evaluate your decision to get on that roof because your probably needed elsewhere.
There was an article a few months about a near miss in a cape style home where the fire was rolling around in the knee walls and hip roof. This condition caused a flashover on the second floor moments after the line had made the second floor landing. The way to prevent this was to either cut the exterior walls where the knee walls are (as already stated) or cut the roof at the roof line from an extension ladder and just make a hole on both sides of the ladder. What do you all think in that scenario?
wait.. now i'm confused, honestly i've never been on a "peaked roof" and for every flat i've cut has been with the k-12 (so i've never used the chainsaw" but in most of the tapes i've seen, the cutters edge has been used for peaks.. so im not
peaked roofs
