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Just came to the conclusion after reading the rants and the second guessing of arm chair quarterbacks on multiply threads here and other Firematic Forums over the years that securing a perimeter is a must during the initial size-up. I would assign my Class C FF to check ID’s frequently and signal 14 to provide a 100 yard perimeter. No Buff’s, No Cameras, No family members of FF’s. NOBODY!!!
No head aches. Reduces the chance of litigation.
Nobody except requested personnel.
We have cameras in all our front line rigs and can make our own footage for review and post fire discussions.
Just came to the conclusion after reading the rants and the second guessing of arm chair quarterbacks on multiply threads here and other Firematic Forums over the years that securing a perimeter is a must during the initial size-up. I would assign my Class C FF to check ID’s frequently and signal 14 to provide a 100 yard perimeter. No Buff’s, No Cameras, No family members of FF’s. NOBODY!!!
No head aches. Reduces the chance of litigation.
Nobody except requested personnel.
We have cameras in all our front line rigs and can make our own footage for review and post fire discussions.
Anyone disagree with this line of thought?
Certain point agreed, certain disagreed....
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADZE07
Just came to the conclusion after reading the rants and the second guessing of arm chair quarterbacks on multiply threads here and other Firematic Forums over the years that securing a perimeter is a must during the initial size-up.
Agreed-VERY MUCH SO. For not only the safety of your members, but everyone else involved.
[quote=ADZE07;189177]I would assign my Class C FF to check ID’s frequently and signal 14 to provide a 100 yard perimeter.[quote]
Disagree to a point- Class C firefighters can help hump hose, change bottles, etc. It is NOT the FIRE DEPTS job to "check ID's", thats why we have cops.
If you dont know who someone is or they are endangering themselves or hampering the operation, HAVE THEM REMOVED BY THE PD. WE ARE NOT COPS!
Buff-wise, I guess as we're a "slower shop", we have less buffs... but who has buffed has either assisted operations or stood well outside the area with a zoom lens to shoot their pics.
As far as "Fire Dept ID"- I've never been asked to produce it, and on the same token, I've never "hampered" operations (PS- I dont "buff" that much either).... I know my role- have helped before, and a lot of times, sat behind the fire line. For the buffs, unless your part of the solution, YOUR PART OF THE PROBLEM!
>>>We have cameras in all our front line rigs and can make our own footage for review and post fire discussions.>>
We do too, a disposable in each rig. If any member was caught using said camera to catch operations when they couldve been assisting in said operation- well, you can guess the rest.
SUMMARY- Its an INDIVIDUAL dept problem.... 25 buffs get in their cars for a reported house fire in Hempstead, maybe 2 for a fire in Lynbrook.
Busy areas= more buffs, which also equals more "wannabe's".... if you dont know the person, have PD relocate them. We dont carry guns into fires, and neither does the fire police. Or just simply say "get the #### outta here!"... people tend to head that initial warning....
In the "slower" areas, most "buffs" are actually a help. Help flake out a line, kick some 5" towards the curb, etc. MOST know their role.
With reguard to "homeowners", they can have no access until operations are concluded and should be well out of the area. Simple as that.
Being a homeowner that was subjected to FD ops- as it is YOUR stuff and not someone else's, your FD training exits your brain. Your head isnt clear, just as if you were to do CPR on a loved one or pull a bro out from a job- its time to step back for a second....
One thing to ponder, always remember, THERE IS ALWAYS SOMEONE at your scene with a camera, camera phone, neighbor videotaping across the street, yada yada. If you DONT f*ck up, than ya have nothing to worry about.....
...We're in the "digitial age" brothers, someone, somewhere is capturing you...
..And as a Side note: you MORONS putting cameras on rigs as your responding, or strapping it to your helmet at fire school or wherever- remember WHAT HAPPENS HERE STAYS HERE! Lawyers are having field days with camera footage now.
To those of you missing said items, I have no prob shelling out the $200 for it- its in pieces on the fire floor. Ya know my name, badge & address.
Personally, I could care less if there were 1000 buffs at a fire, as long as they stay away from the command post, and out of the way of the members operating. As far as class "C" ff's checkin id's - it works on paper, but I think it would be more of a headache at a real "job" - There are tons of things for them to do at a job anyway - assist the ECC, LCC, or put up ground ladders at all sides of the building (something that is almost ALWAYS overlooked) - They can also take the utility rig back to the firehouse for the sig.30 or if need be, go back and open the firehouse for the standby co's that are sitting on the ramp because there isnt anyone there to let them in. (been there done that LOL).
I dont totally disagree with you, because I think you were at the same fire I was last winter when all of the "friends of friends" showed up b4 the fire was out and were walking around. LOL.
Where do you think you are ,,, ??? A dictatorship.????.... you as a FF can not prevent people from entering fire lines,, that is the fire police or police officers jobs.....
Also ,, who cares about the critics, opinions are like ,, you know what,, we all have one and they all STINK.....
Buffs taking pictures help us get the story out about the great jobs, LI's volunteers do EVERYDAY, they actually help not hurt us. IMHO......
Where do you think you are ,,, ??? A dictatorship.????.... you as a FF can not prevent people from entering fire lines,, that is the fire police or police officers jobs.....
Also ,, who cares about the critics, opinions are like ,, you know what,, we all have one and they all STINK.....
Buffs taking pictures help us get the story out about the great jobs, LI's volunteers do EVERYDAY, they actually help not hurt us. IMHO......
I'm not at the top of the chain of command yet and may never be BUT:
If I do make it: Yes, the fire ground would be run as a dictatorship (Respecting the unique Command structure in my District). As incident Commander I can certainly prevent any and all non requested personnel from being anywhere near the fire ground unless I or an Officer within the Command structure requested their presence on the scene. Of course I would request 14 to assist with that first but I would have a Sr. member tasked as back up. The reason I mentioned ID’s was I want to know who you are and why you’re at my job. If you weren’t requested you will be booted. I certainly wouldn’t pull anyone away from important fire ground functions to secure a perimeter. (Not a high priority but an essential one at some point in my opinion) I’m sure my mutual aid companies would eliminate the need for any spectator to assist with fire ground tasks. (Of course there may be exceptions)
Personally, I’m not looking for any attribution from anyone but the property owner, my fellow officers and men. I don’t care if we made a great grab. If it were up to me you wouldn’t read about the details of the job I ran in the papers or see it promoted on a website. It’s what we’re supposed to do. You know the ole’ saying about those who brag about getting laid all the time. However, I understand that not everyone at my place agrees with me about this. If the job was worthy of any “press” at least I can manage what was reported.
As usual, an internal post fire critique will be conducted (which may include the officers of the mutual aid companies). I think spectators on a fire ground can do more harm then good. I don’t see them bringing any value added.
I'm not at the top of the chain of command yet and may never be BUT:
If I do make it: Yes, the fire ground would be run as a dictatorship (Respecting the unique Command structure in my District). As incident Commander I can certainly prevent any and all non requested personnel from being anywhere near the fire ground unless I or an Officer within the Command structure requested their presence on the scene. Of course I would request 14 to assist with that first but I would have a Sr. member tasked as back up. The reason I mentioned ID’s was I want to know who you are and why you’re at my job. If you weren’t requested you will be booted. I certainly wouldn’t pull anyone away from important fire ground functions to secure a perimeter. (Not a high priority but an essential one at some point in my opinion) I’m sure my mutual aid companies would eliminate the need for any spectator to assist with fire ground tasks. (Of course there may be exceptions)
Personally, I’m not looking for any attribution from anyone but the property owner, my fellow officers and men. I don’t care if we made a great grab. If it were up to me you wouldn’t read about the details of the job I ran in the papers or see it promoted on a website. It’s what we’re supposed to do. You know the ole’ saying about those who brag about getting laid all the time. However, I understand that not everyone at my place agrees with me about this. If the job was worthy of any “press” at least I can manage what was reported.
As usual, an internal post fire critique will be conducted (which may include the officers of the mutual aid companies). I think spectators on a fire ground can do more harm then good. I don’t see them bringing any value added.
BTW~ I understand there may be exceptions.
Just my .02
Well put, well thought out.... You use the "key" term, EXCEPTIONS....
...Even if the PD checks ID's, they'll still be the insurance adjuster that "sneaks through".....
...On that note, the last 2 times someone was in a building during overhaul ops, I "bluntly" stated "who the heck are you"... 1 was a priest, the other was the building inspector. Foot-in-mouth, but, if I got a helmet on, so should they.
I believe a bigger problem are the civilians that feel they should be able to watch the action while sitting un the bumper of our rigs. I recently buffed Valley Streams last job on Forest Ave and there were kids all over the place walking in/out/around the hoselines in the street in front of the house with there bikes and skate boards. Now, before you kill me, I dont think it should be the FD or the OIC's job to keep the civilians out of our way. I believe the NCPD needs to set up a perimeter and maintane it. Again, I do not think VSFD did anything wrong. There were plenty of cops there that could have secured the area.
I believe a bigger problem are the civilians that feel they should be able to watch the action while sitting un the bumper of our rigs. I recently buffed Valley Streams last job on Forest Ave and there were kids all over the place walking in/out/around the hoselines in the street in front of the house with there bikes and skate boards. Now, before you kill me, I dont think it should be the FD or the OIC's job to keep the civilians out of our way. I believe the NCPD needs to set up a perimeter and maintane it. Again, I do not think VSFD did anything wrong. There were plenty of cops there that could have secured the area.
We're having a discussing and not placing blame.
Unless, the IC or his Assistants say to signal 14 "I need the scene tightened up" or "I need more of a buffer" It probably won't happen.
I believe a bigger problem are the civilians that feel they should be able to watch the action while sitting un the bumper of our rigs. I recently buffed Valley Streams last job on Forest Ave and there were kids all over the place walking in/out/around the hoselines in the street in front of the house with there bikes and skate boards. Now, before you kill me, I dont think it should be the FD or the OIC's job to keep the civilians out of our way. I believe the NCPD needs to set up a perimeter and maintane it. Again, I do not think VSFD did anything wrong. There were plenty of cops there that could have secured the area.
Not the VS job- but its a "parenting" type of problem all around.....
"I wanna see my daddy "doin the deed"..."... well, guess what, I dont wanna bring my kid to the hospital with a broken nose because he tripped over a hose line & broke his nose against the side of the rig....
Besides falling on the PD's shoulders, with kids, it falls on the PARENTS shoulders- What cop is gonna tell a 8 yr old kid who says "thats my daddy over there" to stay behind a fire line?
...My wife knows what a "10" is, she also knows the last thing she should do is "report to the scene"....
...Leave your home at home when you show up.... My kid/wife/parents dont arrive at a fire scene- you are more focussed without them.
I believe a bigger problem are the civilians that feel they should be able to watch the action while sitting un the bumper of our rigs. I recently buffed Valley Streams last job on Forest Ave and there were kids all over the place walking in/out/around the hoselines in the street in front of the house with there bikes and skate boards. Now, before you kill me, I dont think it should be the FD or the OIC's job to keep the civilians out of our way. I believe the NCPD needs to set up a perimeter and maintane it. Again, I do not think VSFD did anything wrong. There were plenty of cops there that could have secured the area.
I totally hear you on that one, those were the same cops that got mad at us when we were pulling out of the block and had to interupt their conversation with each other to move their cars!
ADZE, I agree with you completely. If you're the IC, you're responsible for everything that happens on scene. If an outsider gets a little too ambitious and tries to "help" and gets hurt or killed, it's not the PD who is going to take the fall---it's you.
Not saying that your guys should be playing bouncer and manhandling people, but posting some additional manpower to give the 14 some extra eyes and ears can do nothing but help.
If others here feel comfortable letting buffs help out, good for you. I just don't think anyone should be flamed on for running a scene the way they think is best (with gross negligence being the exception), because they are the only ones who are going to have to deal with the consequences.
Use the cops. They have guns! In all actuality....if your relations with PD are good....they are your best resource. What's more intimidating? A chubby FF or a dude with a tazer and baton? Generally speaking, most people are pretty good about standing back when PD tells them to....or at least they do here.
OR....you could try the method of crowd control at major fires that we've seen used in Phnom Penh, Cambodia. Two guys "working the crowds" will move them back. One is swinging a large stick, the other is activating a hand held tazer. Pretty effective...and of course looks pretty cool at night, too!
Perimeters around fire scenes are very impotant. However with conditions in the world what they are I am setting up a perimeter around MY house instead!!!!!!!!
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