[MFD594]

For you pre-planners out there...

Thoughts/comments on Pre-Planning LEGALITY...

A few points....

1) Although the info we acquire is not "public-info" per-say, some places have experienced "backlash" from pre-plans, i.e. the FD was aware of a certain condition, didnt make proper notification, or did and it went "nowhere from there"-someone is injured or killed, and the FD is made out to be the "bad guy"...

2) Most of the time, people are more than willing to have you pre-plan their structure. But those that outright refuse- whats your legal recourse?

2a) Whats the "legal" limit re:pre-planning? Is "peeking" in windows permitted? And if so, if the info you "acquire" from "peeking" in windows appropriate for submittal?

Just food for thought/discussion. Knock-on-wood, the issue hasnt come up around here in NY too much.

If your a buff (nosey-body) like me, you preplan anything you drive past in your town or others.

Lotta bad shit out there brothers!

[MFD594]

And to add another "side-bar", how often are your pre-plans updated? Yearly? Monthly?

Whats in that commercial building in January maybe something completely different in July. That beautiful gift shop may now be a photo-processing center- BIG difference in contents

[FourPagers]

this is why pre-planning goes hand in hand with building inspection.

if they don't wanna let you in, and you are a certified and appointed assistant fire inspector, then you can have the NCFM assist you.

[WFD1696]

Originally Posted by MFD594

2) Most of the time, people are more than willing to have you pre-plan their structure. But those that outright refuse- whats your legal recourse?

Your legal recourse is to send in the fire marshals...

[Anytime Baby]

Originally Posted by WFD1696

Your legal recourse is to send in the fire marshals...

You are correct, I have done it before. Also the TOH Buildings Dept helps me alot as well when issues come up.

[exnewhydeparkcap]

dont forget a pre plan is a heads up for us. things change day to day. you could pre plan on monday and on friday the building could be sold and changed by sunday. pre plan helps us out alot and i comend us who do it but dont ever treat a pre plan as gospel treat as the enquier ( but never newsday ) use teh TOH, TONH, TOB or the FM the more info the better but the big key is it can all change in 24 to 48 Hr with out notice

[exnewhydeparkcap]

i hope i used the right word COMEND ( let alone spell it right )

[VSINDY]

Originally Posted by exnewhydeparkcap

dont forget a pre plan is a heads up for us. things change day to day. you could pre plan on monday and on friday the building could be sold and changed by sunday. pre plan helps us out alot and i comend us who do it but dont ever treat a pre plan as gospel treat as the enquier ( but never newsday ) use teh TOH, TONH, TOB or the FM the more info the better but the big key is it can all change in 24 to 48 Hr with out notice

your post has (imo) a great deal of merit...

sometimes, pre-plans are done in a tactical fashion, as in: oh, it's a Sunday morning and 5 degrees out, so let's do a pre-plan instead of a drill...

But pre-plans really need to be part of a strategic process, not a tactical time filler. A good pre-plan would extend beyond just defining obvious risks in a current occupancy, but also questions like: who owns the structure? what are lease arrangements? How long will the current occupancy most likely continue?

All of that should be entered into a database that would include a realistic estimate (rather than an automatic one) as to when the pre-plan should be revisited; that date should be entered into the database, and a process to review the pre-plan at that time should exist.

A long time ago, on a galaxy far away, I was my company's OIC for a fire in an abandoned storage building at a defunct construction company. We were advised by radio of some really potent hazmats recorded by prior preplans in that structure. We all laughed, because we knew that pre-plan was seriously outdated and that long ago, those hazmats were removed, and the only thing left on those shelves were rat feces.

But I remember thinking after the call, what if it had been a structure where the situation was reversed, and what was recorded on a preplan as rat feces was now a seriously dangerous chemical?

So, I passionately believe pre-planing is critical, but to do it right, you need an impeccable process to keep it current.

[Eddie O Sr.]

My department has a fire prvention officer who is employed by the board of fire commissioners, he was our fire inspector until the fire marshals office made a stink on titles.
We recieve a current update of the occupancies, structural changes, haz-mat conditions and any other hidden issues with the buildings in our district on a regular basis. This is something we did not have prior to the hiring of "our own eyes" to look into the buildings in the district.
"Our own eyes" is a new hire after the last fire prevention officer moved to another job. The new FP officer is not a member of our department but comes from another department with a very knowlegeable past, he was hired off of a civil service list.
The Fire Prevention officer reports back to the board and the department about serious conditions and keeps us up to date.
It is my opinion that he does a great job and it allows us to do a secondary view of the things he finds that would be interesting to us.
He is not the sole answer to our learning about buildings it the district, he is just a part of the whole. We as firefighters usually look at any building that is under change or disrepair. But his constant view allows us to be more acurate at seeing the things we need to see.