[sc 574- 5796]

i dispatch for cold spring harbor and fromm what ive seen no dept out here in suffolk that borders nassau is afraid to call them in b/c of county lines. for a 10 i had when dispatch the first dept called mutual aid was syosset b/c the house was right near the border. ive seen syosset at an mva we had on jericho tpke b/c i also ride as an emt if im with another dispatcher. where the trucks are from shouldnt matter as long as they get there. and dispatchers shouldnt have that much discretion either b/c they may have their own biases as well and go against what a chief on scene wants

[E21stDue]

Originally Posted by sc 574- 5796

i dispatch for cold spring harbor and fromm what ive seen no dept out here in suffolk that borders nassau is afraid to call them in b/c of county lines. for a 10 i had when dispatch the first dept called mutual aid was syosset b/c the house was right near the border. ive seen syosset at an mva we had on jericho tpke b/c i also ride as an emt if im with another dispatcher. where the trucks are from shouldnt matter as long as they get there. and dispatchers shouldnt have that much discretion either b/c they may have their own biases as well and go against what a chief on scene wants

I agree that the Name on the side of the trucks getting called as m/a shouldnt matter.

If the dispatcher goes against the request from the IC on scene when it comes to which department to call for mutual aid then that dispatcher isn't doing his job. If the chief or IC requests a unit from a specific department, that unit from that department should be notified. If the IC requests a unit and leaves it up to the dispatchers discretion of what dept it comes from then it is the job of the dispatcher to notify the NEAREST department to the scene of the incident for that unit.

Alot of the people I know in the fire service have friends/relatives in other departments. With that said there is no reason to bypass a mutual company that is with in a closer distance in order to get your friends/relatives some work. If the department I'm dispatching for has a problem with a surrounding department and the IC requests a unit and lets me make the decision of where that unit comes from, if the closest department is the one that doesnt get along with the dept I dispatch for they are still getting called. I dont care if your best friends or worst enemies when a brother calls for help and the pagers go off we are all on the same side.

[Engine44]

Face, when it was mentioned that Department B is unsure of the capabiliites and level of training that Department A has, its simply an excuss to continiue the M/A political bullshi** that goes on. What chiefs are friendlys with what chiefs, who is mad at who for not being called for the last signal 10. It goes on. During a working fire our lives depend on IC or dispacther getting us the closet and fastest unit to the scene to establish an RIT team. We are now going waste time and possibly a brothers life to make some dept / chief / happy dick, happy that they got called to a M/A so they can get their gear and helmet dirty. Thats why i feel that there should be more interbattalion training with the departments arounds us.

[lifer 110]

Originally Posted by 660T

I must say that the North Massapequa Fire Department has always had to my recollection, a very good working relationship with the Bethpage and South Farmingdale FD's. I am glad to see that it continues today.

660t This has NOT "Always " been such a good relationship (Especially from FDB over the years there have been several occasions in which these Depts. have bypassed each other for M/Aid . So its an on again off again thing.

[sponge]

Preassigned mutual aid units (see thread on Franklin Square zones) would be a good start. Of course, if someone wants to deliberately exclude a department from the mutual aid plan, this won't stop it. However, it would prevent an IC from forgetting about a department in the heat of the moment or excluding someone out of momentary spite because he didn't get an invite to their barbecue last week. The IC (especially if it happens to be someone other than a chief) doesn't have to sit there and think about who has the closest tower ladder or know whether the next town over is on another run. You just say "signal 10" or "second alarm" and the dispatcher goes down the list of next due companies for that address. If someone is unavailable, he just goes down to the next company on the list.

Departments providing mutual aid also need to give some though to their procedures. It doesn't make sense that if the department to the east of you asks for an engine, that you have the whole department drive away from the fire to meet up at Headquarters, or you send your West End engine that is a mile or two farther away than your East End engine just because it is 'there turn.' A specific unit should be dispatched, not 'any engine from dept Y.'

In addition to signal 10s and multi-alarm fires, some thought should be put into automatic aid for other calls. There are a bunch of firehouses in Nassau that are a few blocks from district borders. Certain newspapers will have a field day if someone dies three blocks from a fire house because that company wasn't mutual aided until someone farther away showed up and transmitted a 10 and requested the engine three blocks away.

[660T]

Originally Posted by 4102

yea but are you going to put your life and the others in your department on the line for fast m/a just be cause there your friends or operate good. or should we start to look at the big picture and call the closet available resources. i am not saying dont call them but where i am from we get by past sometime because the big departments in my batt. will call the other batt. when the fire is one block out of my 1st due there have been times that trucks pass the fire house to go to the scene while we are in quarters. its things like that that we should look at in the long run. its a new era sorry to say i was raised old school fire but we realy cant practice it any more. its sad to say but true.

4102, the departments I mentioned are our surrounding departments in the 9th Battalion. The point being that we called these departments if we needed assistance on a location closest to them regardless of the fact that they were not in our Battalion. THEY WERE TWO OF OUR NEIGHBORING DEPARTMENTS (AND VERY GOOD ONES TO BOOT)

[ADZE07]

Originally Posted by stepitxup

Okay, very good points on all end. But let me throw something out there.

What if Dept A is a little closer to the host dept, but they have a shitty and un-trustworthy Truck Co. While Dept B is a few blocks father away and is a very good Co with a tight crew.

I happen to agree with this rationale. I'm a training hound. I strongly believe in it. I believe it should be done at least twice a month not including dept operations and other ancillary training @ The FSA. I strongly believe in training with my neighboring departments as well. This allows the men from the departments to feel comfortable with each other. I need to be keenly aware of the capabilities of the companies that I’m requesting to the fire ground. As an officer I have read the SOG's/ SOP's of the most of my surrounding departments so I know, that I know, that I know what "TO EXPECT" not what I hope for. I need to know that the companies that I call are disciplined, can follow orders etc. I need to know that they can play with the other kids in the sand box. Otherwise they are not going to help.

I don't agree at all with allowing FIRECOM to make any fire ground decisions for me. That said, they can certainly be given mutual aid agreements that stipulate who they will call once the signal 10 is transmitted. This should take care of the situation that was presented at the beginning of the thread. One less thing for the Chief to think about.

[ADZE07]

Apologies for the double post

[ADZE07]

Oh, I forgot to mention some concerns. Does the requested Department have a FAS Team that trains regularly? Or do they roll with the first guys that show up? Are they properly equiped to help my down FF with the proper Rit Pac connections?? (More of a concern for out of Batt response) If you only have a MSA connection for a FF wearing Scott scba we have a problem. So being familiar with your mutual aid companies is very important. My .02

[e173nhp]

This is obviously not a rule but more of an "unwritten agreement" that the chiefs in the battalion share. It sounds like the chief in this situation was more concerned about what he'd hear at the next battalion meeting than he was about the safety of his members.

[dawreckingstick]

Ok, I didn’t realize a thread had already been started on this topic a day or so prior to mine (Mutual Aid -who to call?). Anyway I copied & pasted my thoughts from that thread to here. Certainly speed of response is a factor to consider but so is capability of MA crews.

Why does my dept get passed over for Mutual Aid – a valid question to ask myself? My comments are not directed at any particular dept, just thinking out loud since it appears this questions often arises in the sig-10 thread regardless of Battalion or Dept.

Here are a few places where blame is frequently inserted.
1. Politics/personal friendships.
2. Battalion affiliation.

I give today’s Chiefs far more credit and believe they rely on far more pertinent reasoning when choosing/assigning MA dept’s and developing MA procedures/sop’s.

My personal view -- If I were King for a day here’s a snapshot of what I'd base the who of my MA decisions on.

Does the crew routinely sent MA to me by X, Y & Z departments do (or not do) the following ----- or ---- know how to, have experience or drill extensively on the following.

1. Size-up (officers & members) and its relationship to the particular structure and environment they’ve responded.
2. Officers, who are proactive, can think a few steps ahead of the fire and communicate pertinent info back to the IC.
3. Officers who follow the orders of the IC to detail.
4. Members who follow the orders of their officers and/or the host department’s officers to detail.
5. Flat roof Op’s (observations/reports) and venting techniques -- -how to properly operate a rotary saw & where to cut.
6. Capable of performing and (willing to) taking the beating associated with searching on the floor above in PD and MO’s.
7. Forcible entry techniques utilized/required in MO’s & commercials
8. Opening up walls, floors & ceilings to check for extension and where to.
9. What lines to stretch as BU.
10. Standpipe Op’s and the host dept’s. Sop’s regarding such.
11. How to stretch pre-connects as well as static load handlines.
12. How to estimate stretches.
13. Familiarity with the type of hose systems or tactics the host dept routinely deploys.
14. Where does the second, third or fourth line go and how does it get there.
15. Capable and determined enginemen willing to make the hard push or hold their position to protect the brothers operating in exposed positions above or flanking the fire room/room‘s.
16. Capable and determined truckies willing to stand/crawl/search with the engine taking the beating required in order to open up and expose those the pockets of fire that left unchecked will spread to upper floors, cause the loss of the top floor or total loss of the structure.
17. Clog stairwells and doorways cuz we think that’s the place to be -- Sheppard’s.
18. Truckies standing dumfounded in the Sheppard’s position while viewing kinks in handlines and/or lines needing some lightening-up.
19. Capable and highly qualified Chauffeurs who can properly position and operate their respective rig (Eng or Truck).
20. Experienced & highly trained/drilled FAST team members. Do they have actual hands on good work under their belt -- have they made the push, felt the heat & worked in snot in the past. This isn’t the time for beginners.
21. Members who are determined, emotionally & physically capable of carrying out their jobs and/or the tasks assigned by their officers and the IC.
22. Send Rookies closely supervised by highly experienced members.
23. Send Probies!!!! --- is this a training drill back home?

IMOP -- this is not a party or social club event you’re being invited to, it’s a Fire and none are owed Invitations ----- WE EARN THEM. Good performances always keep the stadiums full and the fans coming back game after game --- season after season.

If my responses for my dept to the above list were mostly negative I'd do something to change them. Drill – Drill - Drill & Train-Train-Train to improve performance and create a better perception. Hey you never know, we might get invited back in the wild card spot and rise to the top. If the Giants can do it so can we.

Stay Safe

[aircrew423]

thats a fine way to dictate who you call but how are you or the OIC going to be able to know that information. I find my company being looked over on many occations and it makes no sense. there should be a common trust on your fellow brothers to know what they are doing when operating at a scene. i also do agree that there are companies out there who like to do there own thing and not listen to the OIC and thats the dumbest thing. the thing that keeps me guessing when i hear the call for an MA is location of the call, logicly u think they would call the closest to the call, never the case. our job is to protect life and property, if you need the man-power you want it there fast.

[ADZE07]

"how are you or the OIC going to be able to know that information. "

I believe that is part of the responsibility of being Chief.

[mike205]

Once again the work “VOLITICS” comes into play! It will take someone getting killed and the Chief of Department being indicted for Manslaughter to open everyone’s eyes and address the issue.

The mutual aid policy should be set by the Nassau County Fire Commission disregarding, politics, grudges and any boundaries. Utilizing geographic locations of fire stations would be the safest for the public and firefighters. With all the crap Newsrag wrote about the fire service this is one topic I would have liked to see in the series, brought to light and addressed.

[ADZE07]

Originally Posted by dawreckingstick

Ok, I didn’t realize a thread had already been started on this topic a day or so prior to mine (Mutual Aid -who to call?). Anyway I copied & pasted my thoughts from that thread to here. Certainly speed of response is a factor to consider but so is capability of MA crews.

Why does my dept get passed over for Mutual Aid – a valid question to ask myself? My comments are not directed at any particular dept, just thinking out loud since it appears this questions often arises in the sig-10 thread regardless of Battalion or Dept.

Here are a few places where blame is frequently inserted.
1. Politics/personal friendships.
2. Battalion affiliation.

I give today’s Chiefs far more credit and believe they rely on far more pertinent reasoning when choosing/assigning MA dept’s and developing MA procedures/sop’s.

My personal view -- If I were King for a day here’s a snapshot of what I'd base the who of my MA decisions on.

Does the crew routinely sent MA to me by X, Y & Z departments do (or not do) the following ----- or ---- know how to, have experience or drill extensively on the following.

1. Size-up (officers & members) and its relationship to the particular structure and environment they’ve responded.
2. Officers, who are proactive, can think a few steps ahead of the fire and communicate pertinent info back to the IC.
3. Officers who follow the orders of the IC to detail.
4. Members who follow the orders of their officers and/or the host department’s officers to detail.
5. Flat roof Op’s (observations/reports) and venting techniques -- -how to properly operate a rotary saw & where to cut.
6. Capable of performing and (willing to) taking the beating associated with searching on the floor above in PD and MO’s.
7. Forcible entry techniques utilized/required in MO’s & commercials
8. Opening up walls, floors & ceilings to check for extension and where to.
9. What lines to stretch as BU.
10. Standpipe Op’s and the host dept’s. Sop’s regarding such.
11. How to stretch pre-connects as well as static load handlines.
12. How to estimate stretches.
13. Familiarity with the type of hose systems or tactics the host dept routinely deploys.
14. Where does the second, third or fourth line go and how does it get there.
15. Capable and determined enginemen willing to make the hard push or hold their position to protect the brothers operating in exposed positions above or flanking the fire room/room‘s.
16. Capable and determined truckies willing to stand/crawl/search with the engine taking the beating required in order to open up and expose those the pockets of fire that left unchecked will spread to upper floors, cause the loss of the top floor or total loss of the structure.
17. Clog stairwells and doorways cuz we think that’s the place to be -- Sheppard’s.
18. Truckies standing dumfounded in the Sheppard’s position while viewing kinks in handlines and/or lines needing some lightening-up.
19. Capable and highly qualified Chauffeurs who can properly position and operate their respective rig (Eng or Truck).
20. Experienced & highly trained/drilled FAST team members. Do they have actual hands on good work under their belt -- have they made the push, felt the heat & worked in snot in the past. This isn’t the time for beginners.
21. Members who are determined, emotionally & physically capable of carrying out their jobs and/or the tasks assigned by their officers and the IC.
22. Send Rookies closely supervised by highly experienced members.
23. Send Probies!!!! --- is this a training drill back home?

IMOP -- this is not a party or social club event you’re being invited to, it’s a Fire and none are owed Invitations ----- WE EARN THEM. Good performances always keep the stadiums full and the fans coming back game after game --- season after season.

If my responses for my dept to the above list were mostly negative I'd do something to change them. Drill – Drill - Drill & Train-Train-Train to improve performance and create a better perception. Hey you never know, we might get invited back in the wild card spot and rise to the top. If the Giants can do it so can we.

Stay Safe

Well said.