[Rant Boss]

One of Newsrag's recommendations is for combo paid/volly departments on Long Island.

I'm not sure if anyone from Long Beach or Garden City surfs this message board yet, but if so, I'd be interested in hearing the pros and cons you experience firsthand as one of Nassau's two combination departments.

[Signal 12]

I'm not a South Shore firefighter, definitly not a Long Beach firefighter either. I'm from the other side of the county and also a career NYC firefighter. We had a covering boss in my firehouse in Brooklyn about a year ago who got his start in Long Beach. The way he explained the combination department to me was like this; the city employs so many career, union (IAFF) firefighters. They work straight 24's, up and down. The exact workings of their chart I'm not familiar with. There are 4-5 paid firemen on duty at all times. All of these firefighters attened training somewhere upstate, possibly in one of the academies that would be used to train paid firefighters for areas like White Plains, etc. A co-worker told me that years ago in his probie class at the rock, there were two Long Beach guys in his class. Anyway, in addition to their basic training they also have to be at least an EMT or possibly even an AEMT. Two paid firemen handle all first signal nines and all still alarms. The bullshit calls ... car fires, brush, rubbish, etc. If there is a second signal nine while the two paid guys are out on the bus, the dispatcher sends out the paid engine company and then tones out for the volleys to come and get the bus. Gas leaks, extrications, water rescues and structural responses require the response of the entire department -- paid guys and the volleys. If there is a house fire within city limits, the paid lieutenant and a paid firefighter get in the paid engine and drive to the fire. Put the rig in pumps and stretch a line. A paid guy drives the paid ambulance, parks it out of the way, gears up and assists with the stretch. The remaining paid fireman drives the ladder truck from headquarters, positions it, gears up and helps the other paid guys with the stretch. Most of the companies in Long Beach have their members respond to quarters to get the rig, however the ladder truck that is chauffeured by the paid guy has all of the volley's bunker gear on it, so those members just go to the scene. There is a large magnet board in one of the compartments, once the volleys get to the scene, gear up and take tools, they place a magnet with their name on it next to what ever riding position they've assumed. This system has seemed to work in Long Beach and from what the boss that passed through my firehouse told me, continues to work. A couple of things stand out ... the paid firefighters will not respond to alarms in West Atlantic Beach, which is part of the Long Beach Fire District. Also, the volunteer chief is the only cheif and he has the final say on the fireground. One of the arguments that was mentioned in the Newsday investigation of the Long Island fire service was that by having a paid crew on duty you would ensure a fast turnout and quick response. YES. But ensuring that the paid guys are better trained isn't an intelligent comment. Thus being that because they are unionized and answer to a lieutenant and from what I'm lead to beleive, some kind of a UFA commander, whose appointed from the volley ranks, aside from their initial basic training, aka - their academy, and the EMT / AEMT training they attend, there's doubts that the paid firefighters are spending an hour or two in each shift drilling and training on new tactics and equipment. They maintain the buildings, the firehouse, etc. However it's the volleys who are sending their probies to primaries and essentials and continuously going out to Bethpage for Department Operations and other classes. No one has a straight answer as to what the paid firefighters are doing to keep their skills sharp. In fact it wasn't too long agao when the paid firefighters were still wearing rubber coats and pull up boots and the volleys had state of the art bunker gear. Or when the volleys would show up and stretch an inch and three quarter line while the paid crew would go for the booster hose. Is it the answer? I'm not from Long Beach or Garden City, I don't know for sure, nor do I know first hand. This is merely what I got out of a conversation with a boss from work who got his start in Long Beach. In a regular volley house if you see someone do something wrong or in violation of the SOP's or the by-laws, or if your just a dick and you don't like them, you write them up on charges and they usually get a two weeks vacation or some nonsense. But when your in a combination department and a paid guy messes up and it's witnessed by a volley, what happens? does the paid guy lose a weeks pay because a volley wrote him up? Does a volley captain out rank a paid lieutenant? Does the volley EMS officer out rank the two paid guys on the ambulance? Does anyone know anymore about how Long Beach and Garden City operate?

[Rant Boss]

Originally Posted by Signal 12

... when your in a combination department and a paid guy messes up and it's witnessed by a volley, what happens? does the paid guy lose a weeks pay because a volley wrote him up? Does a volley captain out rank a paid lieutenant? Does the volley EMS officer out rank the two paid guys on the ambulance? Does anyone know anymore about how Long Beach and Garden City operate?

Excellent questions...exactly what I'm trying to understand (among other things) as to how a combo department works. Thanks for the reply

[Signal 12]

Say no more brother ...

[tellmware2go]

Hopefully I can shed a little light on some of your questions. Like Signal said, the passing covering officer in his firehouse was a while ago. Some things have changed in the Beach. They still have 4-5 men on duty for a 24 hour period and they have 72 hours off. Four groups with 1 officer. Two men still man the ambulance and the rest now man the engine. The ladder went volunteer as far as drivers around 3 or 4 years ago. It acts the same as all other volunteer apparatus, the driver and crew drive to the firehouse and pick up the rig and go to the call. The UFA covers all of the City of Long Beach and the village of East Atlantic Beach. The volunteers by contract cover West Atlantic Beach Fire District.
As far as the department officers are concerned, they have the three Chief's and the paid lieutenant is the next officer in charge as per the city charter.
If a volunteer sees a UFA member doing something wrong, they are obligated to report it and it has been done in the past. And yes UFA members have been severley disciplined. They have been a few men fired for a few reasons.
As far as the UFA members training, again a few years ago they all attended the "Rock", the last few classes including one in progress have gone to upstate academys for their training. In addition they have been scheduled the last few years to attend classes in Bethpage to keep them up. They have been attending department operations classes with other Long Beach companies. UFA members are also engouraged to become A/Emts. Not required but if they do pass they automaticly get a raise.
I think I covered it all. Hope that helps. If I missed something , I'll get back to you.

[Signal 12]

Thanks for shedding some light on that topic. It answered a couple of questions. Wow, couldn't imagine getting fired because I didn't play nice with people who are volunteering to do what I'm getting paid for. That's gott'a suck. The UFA guys that got fired must have really messed up. Does their local let them volunteer in their home town as firefighters? Like if a guy was a paid man in Long Beach, could he be a volly in Lynbrook ... for example?

[rescue513]

Does their local let them volunteer in their home town as firefighters? Like if a guy was a paid man in Long Beach, could he be a volly in Lynbrook ... for example?
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As far as i know...and can be approx 90% sure.. in order to be a paid city of long beach FF, you MUST be a city resident, and cannot volunteer in the city of long beach.. and since you MUST be a city resident, i assume that you therefore cannot volly anywhere else... also the paid guys and the volly's down there seem to get along pretty good... at least on the fire scene from what ive seen and heard.. if i had their job.. id get along with anyone..... and as far as rolling procedures.. The UFA handles all the 1st signal 9s (aideds & mvas).. they also handle signal 8's primary (outside odors,car fires,brush,wires not connected to a house,etc) as far as general's go they respond to those from the pt.lookout border to the east/west atlantic beach border... the 2 guys assigned to 2319(ambulance) have their gear on the back of 2343(engine)..they roll out first, get to the scene,gear up and work on the engine... the engine rolls out with a chauffeur and the boss..so 90% of the time,they catch the 1st due work.... on second 9's if 2319 is unavailable..2343 responds first to stabilize,then 2321(volly ambulance)is alerted and responds with a volly crew... hope that sheds a halogen light on the topic... and yes, at a scene with no chief the PAID lieutenant is in charge... if a chief is enroute,then the lieu can "recommend" signals (10,12,13,32)... volly chiefs do not go to UFA calls...(ie,signal 8s and signal 9s but do on 2nd 9s) and as far as their UFA commanding officer, it is usually an ex chief of the vollies picked by i believe the fire commissioners and/or city council....

[tellmware2go]

Just to clarify a little about volunteering in their own departments. You do not HAVE to be a resident of Long Beach to be hired by the FD. In the last 15 years it just so happens that no one outside of Long Beach have been hired. There is nothing in writing that says you MUST live in the City. People outside of Long Beach have taken the test but haven't been hired lately. Once you are a member of the UFA, you are supposed to resign from the volunteers.
As far as UFA members being disciplined, just like any job or fire department, you do the crime you pay the time. Believe me, what the members did to get fired was a fireable offense. I don't want to get into specifics here. And they do play nice with each other, but if someone sees something totally wrong, no matter what kind of Fire Department situation, you should report it. By the way, they have a really good union that fights tooth and nail to get them rehired.
Two more nit picky claifications, the 2319 member's gear is on 2319, and volunteer Chiefs sometimes roll with the UFA apparatus, if the call is of a seriuos nature, they do help out.
As far as the commanding officer, "in the day" the commaning officer rose from the ranks of the UFA. Worked his way up from firefighter to Lieutenant and if he wanted to continue he could become the commanding officer. After the last one of those commanding officers retired back in 1990, the department had one of the Lieutenants as their commanding officer. When he retired one Former Chief was appointed by the City. As for the present Commander, he is not a Former Chief.

[ExLBFDTRUCKIE2362]

the current Commander is very knowledgeable and well respected thru out the dept.

[NassauRanter]

Newsday suggested that the LI fire departments look to Prince George's and Montgomery Counties, Maryland as models for where we on LI should be going. I volunteered in PG county while attending college at Univeristy of Maryland. I agree that this is, no doubt, the direction LI should be going in. I know you asked specifically about how Long Beach and Garden City operate, but I thought I'd explain a little bit about how PG works. Almost every station in the county is owned by Volunteer corporations. These corporations also own much of the apparatus, although the county, by means of PGFD, owns apparatus and places it in certain stations where necessary. All of the stations in PG are staffed 24/7. Most of the stations are combination Career/Volly, but there are some that are 100% volunteer and a handful that are 100% career. For the combination stations, the county usually provides 4 career people during the day time hours. All other times the stations are staffed by dedicataed volunteers. Unlike Long Beach, which has a dedicated paid engine, in PG, for the most part, the vollies and the carreer people ride the same rigs. For instance, if station 7 get an ambulance call, 2 career guys will ride the ambo. This leaves 2 career people in the station to ride the rigs. If there are vollies in the station, the vollies will hop on the Engine or Tower and make up the staffing. Basically, the system is set up to allow the career people to fill in the gaps where the Volunteers fall short. The other really important point is that the entire county operates under a box system. Closest units are dispatched regardless of whose first due it is. For instance to apply this system to Nassau, if there's a report of a building fire at Old Country Road and Glen Gove Road, the closest stations will be dispatched with the appropriate apparatus. PG Communications keeps track of how many crews the stations have at all times, even though each station is ony required to maintain one crew. So if Mineola has 3 crews, they'll be dispacthed with three pieces. Carle Place may only get dispatched w/ one piece, depending on how close they are. All structure fires in PG get 4 engines 2 truck companies and one resuce squad.

I hope this sheds some light on to how PG operates. I'll be glad to respond to any questions.

[grumpydispatcher]

Outside ideas are what we need. NassauRanter has shed some light on how other places do it and I'm sure there are great ideas all over the country that could be in part adopted and made to work for us.

The only problem is that with the current way that our "all knowing" fire commission works, it all falls on deaf ears. The Nassau Fire Service is basically governed by a dinosaur society that isn't exactly open to progressive ideas.

What's the best system for us to work under?... I don't know. But what I do know is that in order to figure that out, we at least need people in charge that are open to discussion as to different ways to do things.

[tellmware2go]

One very important thing that most people don't know about the Nassau County fire service, there is no one in charge. The fire commission can tell any fire department anything, and all that fire department has to do is just say no and the fire commission has no recourse. Lots of people in the fire service have many good ideas on how we can all make it a better place, they can bring their ideas out and get them approved, then it only takes one fire department to shoot it down and that's all she wrote. Restructuring districts, buying newer more modern radio systems, all good ideas. It's not just the commission, it's the way the County charter was written and the way things are. I'm not trying to shoot anybody down, just trying to tell it like it is.

[Signal 12]

For the most part your right. I often get people telling me at work that if no one volunteered and if we all consolidated that we'd be paid. Guys would joke and say that they'd leave the city and start working for the Nassau paid fire department if it were to happen. Assuming that we'd be on parity with the cops. One thing that I continuously remind them is that if at the very least, people take into consideration that out of all of the 71 fire departments in the county, all of them are either one of five possible types of departments. Independant compaines, districts, water/fire districts, villages and cities. Just imagine that there was a way and also someone to answer to, a head person in charge, or if by some figment of our imaginations the fire commission actually had some kind of say, you'd still have to consolidate five different types of organizational structures. Voters, district lines, where money comes from, all this shit, like I said in a previous posting ... we're not going paid anytime soon.

[NassauRanter]

TellMeWare2go is absolutely correct. The Fire Commission and the county lack the power to make any changes. There's only one way I can see any substantial form of change coming about. Someone at the County level, either the legislature or the executive, would have to be put together a plan for the fire service in Nassau. They would then have to bring this plan to Albany and convince the law makers to abolish the charters of the Fire Disctricts, the Indepenent Companies, and all the other type of districts, and to vest the power in the County. Essentially, Albany would have to rework the powers assigned to Nassau County and take the fire protection power away from local government and grant it at the county level. I don't think this is a very likely scenario, but I can't imagine any other way for any County-wide change to take place.

Thoughts??

[grumpydispatcher]

NassauRanter is right that the change ultimately has to start with legislation upstate and work its way down. My point about the Fire Commission is that although many of us recognize that there is a problem, we can't do anything about it because there is no way that the commission can change it. Part of it is that they can't because they're not given the power, the other part is that they won't, even if they could, because of lack of desire to make any to make any progressive non traditional changes.