Was thinking. We all carry spare air bottles on the rigs, and have either the district or a service come in to fill bottles at major fires.
And set up Med stations in case of injuries, But do we set them up together?
usually not.
I feel that a central location for SCBA changing and accountability of the amount of bottles each member uses.
Medical evaluation of members after 1 or 2 bottles sould be done and documented. But when rehab is only done after a member feels tired and bottles are changed in multi locations this causes a problem with tracking and catching a possible medical problem.
I do realize the great shape we are all in, the healthy food we all eat, and and hours in the gym, and being checked at a fire/hazmat/ large scale incident is a sign of weakness, but when do you think a standard/ real change will occur?
Is there any department HAS, IMPLEMENTS AND IS STRICT WITH A PROCEDURE. for not allowing more than 2 bottles in a fire and medical evaluation to be done and REAL tracking at fire scenes?
Last edited by Bothworlds : 04-10-2009 at 12:11 PM.
Reason: forgot something
The cold hard fact is that most departments have pieces of the puzzle but do not complete it. Bottles are carried on each truck so there is no need to go to one spot for a bottle and get grabbed to go to rehab. They might not have a rehab set up at all maybe only an ambulance. Enforcement is the hardest problem, no one wants to be the one to say leave the building and go to rehab.
There is a NFPA "Guideline" for Firefighter Rehab, I have never seen a department really follow it, which is never really a problem until "something" happens.
In todays day and age, we should be doing rehab for our "own" good, we need to protect ourselves, alot of our manpower is now older and of course not in great shape, causing more stress on the body.
For some people it is a "macho" thing, "I dont need to rest, I dont need that oxygen, My blood pressure is just fine". All these statement are probably 100% wrong after being in a working fire.
We need to take care of our own, properly monitor them, properly hydrate them (when needed), we all need to go home safe after a fire and remain safe, how many people go home after a fire not "feeling well" and dont wake up the next morning? I personally know a few, would of a rehab station at the fire scene made a difference???, We wont know that answer, but without one, one can only assume!
Bottom line, the Fire Service needs proper rehab!!!!!
Last edited by LB231X : 04-24-2009 at 10:59 AM.
Reason: typos
I am actively looking for any SOP's or guidelines that any departments are currently using or planning on implementing in the future for Firefighter Rehab. This is to aid in designing a training program on the subject. Please PM me with any information. I would like to build upon what some people are already doing rather than reinventing the wheel.
We have a pretty strict procedure and an excellent set-up that is to be used for any incident where crews are working for any significant amount of time. It follows NFPA guidelines.
I am actively looking for any SOP's or guidelines that any departments are currently using or planning on implementing in the future for Firefighter Rehab. This is to aid in designing a training program on the subject. Please PM me with any information. I would like to build upon what some people are already doing rather than reinventing the wheel.
Try contacting (PM me if you'd like and I'll get you their info) an officer or the Captian of Rockville Centre Rescue..
Last edited by Lil_Ms_EMS : 05-18-2009 at 06:56 PM.
Reason: um... bc i can. :)
The problem with rehab stations (and i have seen this happen) is when you go get checked out and the medic decides to administer O2 now they have to fill out a PCR and once a PCR is filled out on you, you are technically OOS until the department doctor ok's you to go back into service. I have been at a fire and watched 10+ guys go get checked out after one bottle and they were done for the rest of the fire.
If you cant go through 2 bottles at a fire and then help with cleaning up you should not be in the fire service.
I hate to say it, but the whole issue of "rehab" in the fire service came about from brothers dropping after they returned from runs.
As the fire service goes- finger-pointing.
Sure, there are issues that need to be addressed, but ultimately, the individual needs to know their own limitations. Pride has killed a lotta good people in the fire service, and plenty of other jobs.
Phoenix (?) has a very good system set up. Mainly because when its 107 degrees outside and your turtled up going into a burning structure, no matter your physical condition, your gonna get an ass beating. And coming out and taking a breather on the lawn is not an option.
Everyone offers great ideas and exchange of info here.
But what happened to the good ole bottle of Poland Spring, pat on the back, and "take a break kid" that we all got at one point or another in our lives? If someone comes up to you saying "you look like shit", isnt that enough to take a breather?
Its up to US, as brother firefighters, to keep an eye on each other. The EMS Rehab Post or whatever you may call it isnt inside the fire building.
Take anyone's BP when they come out of a fire building. Whether they were humping hose or pulling ceilings. Betcha its gonna be elevated.
I'm in no way demeaning the EMS/Rehab Post, I think it can and will save lives, and its a good idea. But, it opens up a pandoras box of questions and issues.
At the very least, people should be following the "bottle rule".... if you just went through 2 bottles, or your puking, or you look as white as a Q-tip, you're done.
There's no shame in taking a breather, no matter who you are, where you are, what physical condition your in, we all have bad days.
As an old salt once told me "the worst fires are on Sunday mornings"....
231X is correct when he said we should be doing it for ourselves. My department has not adopted a firm rule on rehab but being that it is the right thing to do we set up our rehab anyway. If you do not want to use it fine you are not required to. If you do want to use it and we do something as trivial as hand out water or give you a place to sit for 5 minutes isn't that better then nothing? Medical professionals do not have to complete a pcr on people in rehab, but if you look like crap and we think there is a problem then they would fill one out. Wouldn't you want the chance to prove it was job related if you end up with something later? Wouldn't your family prefer you got looked at in the rehab or tent or chair rather then look at your face when they watch you call an ambulance later? For everyone who likes to bash EMS or the rehab idea go right ahead hopefully you will never need either one and that's fine, less work for those who are staffing it (even though they are staffing it because its their way of doing the right thing). However if that setup stops one person from going down or going to the hospital isn't that worth the 10 minutes it took to put up the whole thing? Isn't it worth the cup of water? Its free, its set up for you by your brothers and sisters and its designed to save a brother or sister. I know... tough concept to swallow when your superman.
Try contacting (PM me if you'd like and I'll get you their info) an officer or the Captian of Rockville Centre Rescue..
Rockville has an excellent re-hab set up, including an inflatable building and cooling fans. I know we are going to take advantage of it as needed. (missed ya!)
The problem with rehab stations (and i have seen this happen) is when you go get checked out and the medic decides to administer O2 now they have to fill out a PCR and once a PCR is filled out on you, you are technically OOS until the department doctor ok's you to go back into service. I have been at a fire and watched 10+ guys go get checked out after one bottle and they were done for the rest of the fire.
If you cant go through 2 bottles at a fire and then help with cleaning up you should not be in the fire service.
The problem with rehab stations (and i have seen this happen) is when you go get checked out and the medic decides to administer O2 now they have to fill out a PCR and once a PCR is filled out on you, you are technically OOS until the department doctor ok's you to go back into service. I have been at a fire and watched 10+ guys go get checked out after one bottle and they were done for the rest of the fire.
If you cant go through 2 bottles at a fire and then help with cleaning up you should not be in the fire service.
This is really an ignorant statement with regards to rehab. I am not sure where to even begin to address the "Amen" either. The whole purpose of the Rehab is to HELP our fellow brothers who might not realize they are in danger. Dehydration, Heat exhaustion, Heat stroke, post-event MI's(for redneck,that would be a heart attack buddy) are just a few of the medical conditions that have crumbled even the best seasoned firefighter. Most of us know that we need to stay hydrated when it is hot(and even when it's not) well before the big one. When it is 97 degrees and the heat index is 110, we need to make sure that Rehab policies are in effect to PROTECT the brothers.
The 2 bottles and "clean-up" / overhaul afterwards is old school in the above scenario. This is why we have mutual aid. This is why we call for relief. None of us are SUPERMAN! Include having the member take a breather under some mist if it is hot, get out of elements if below freezing. If he or she looks crappy, then have rehab EMT check vitals. If he or she needs to be taken out of game,SO WHAT!!! We need to go to a funeral because you didn't think it was necessary to do any Rehab,get your ass kicked in 100 degree weather,go through 2 botttles and then overhaul because it was "YOUR" fire and you didn't want to miss anything and were more macho than Rambo on Roids? How about an Amen now?
This is really an ignorant statement with regards to rehab. I am not sure where to even begin to address the "Amen" either. The whole purpose of the Rehab is to HELP our fellow brothers who might not realize they are in danger. Dehydration, Heat exhaustion, Heat stroke, post-event MI's(for redneck,that would be a heart attack buddy) are just a few of the medical conditions that have crumbled even the best seasoned firefighter. Most of us know that we need to stay hydrated when it is hot(and even when it's not) well before the big one. When it is 97 degrees and the heat index is 110, we need to make sure that Rehab policies are in effect to PROTECT the brothers.
The 2 bottles and "clean-up" / overhaul afterwards is old school in the above scenario. This is why we have mutual aid. This is why we call for relief. None of us are SUPERMAN! Include having the member take a breather under some mist if it is hot, get out of elements if below freezing. If he or she looks crappy, then have rehab EMT check vitals. If he or she needs to be taken out of game,SO WHAT!!! We need to go to a funeral because you didn't think it was necessary to do any Rehab,get your ass kicked in 100 degree weather,go through 2 botttles and then overhaul because it was "YOUR" fire and you didn't want to miss anything and were more macho than Rambo on Roids? How about an Amen now?
AMEN AND HALLELUIAH!!! THANK YOU WANDERER!!! I for one do not understand why we get such resistance on this issue! Like you said, we are trying to take care of our brother and sister firefighters so we do not have to explain to their families at their funerals why we stood by and did nothing to help protect them!! I hope I am NEVER in that position!!!!!!
AMEN AND HALLELUIAH!!! THANK YOU WANDERER!!! I for one do not understand why we get such resistance on this issue! Like you said, we are trying to take care of our brother and sister firefighters so we do not have to explain to their families at their funerals why we stood by and did nothing to help protect them!! I hope I am NEVER in that position!!!!!!
This is really an ignorant statement with regards to rehab. I am not sure where to even begin to address the "Amen" either. The whole purpose of the Rehab is to HELP our fellow brothers who might not realize they are in danger. Dehydration, Heat exhaustion, Heat stroke, post-event MI's(for redneck,that would be a heart attack buddy) are just a few of the medical conditions that have crumbled even the best seasoned firefighter. Most of us know that we need to stay hydrated when it is hot(and even when it's not) well before the big one. When it is 97 degrees and the heat index is 110, we need to make sure that Rehab policies are in effect to PROTECT the brothers.
The 2 bottles and "clean-up" / overhaul afterwards is old school in the above scenario. This is why we have mutual aid. This is why we call for relief. None of us are SUPERMAN! Include having the member take a breather under some mist if it is hot, get out of elements if below freezing. If he or she looks crappy, then have rehab EMT check vitals. If he or she needs to be taken out of game,SO WHAT!!! We need to go to a funeral because you didn't think it was necessary to do any Rehab,get your ass kicked in 100 degree weather,go through 2 botttles and then overhaul because it was "YOUR" fire and you didn't want to miss anything and were more macho than Rambo on Roids? How about an Amen now?
First of all BUDDY I am and have been an EMT for a while now. Secondly you are missing the point of my post, If a department was to set up a mist spray and only started PCR's on someone who needed it then great everyone could use a little rest. What I said was we lost over 10 members because PCR's were started that were not needed and the members could not go back into service.
As far as old school YES IT IS and I like old school. Ignorance I think not. Is there a need for rehab YES there is IF it is done right but you get a lot of EMT's running around thinking they are doctors and god forbid you come out of a fire and cough once next thing you know you're a high risk patient and must go to the hospital.
Now you have these new kids that want to be Scott qualified after 1 month in the company and suck down a full bottle at a car fire and are too tired to repack the pre-connect.
I will say it again IF YOU CAN'T GO THRU 2 BOTTLES AT A FIRE AND HELP WITH CLEANING UP AFTERWARDS YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS IN THE FIRE SERVICE.
Oh and Einstein nowhere in my post did I mention overhaul.
Bottom line Put the Wet Stuff on the Red Stuff and go home
First of all BUDDY I am and have been an EMT for a while now. Secondly you are missing the point of my post, If a department was to set up a mist spray and only started PCR's on someone who needed it then great everyone could use a little rest. What I said was we lost over 10 members because PCR's were started that were not needed and the members could not go back into service.
As far as old school YES IT IS and I like old school. Ignorance I think not. Is there a need for rehab YES there is IF it is done right but you get a lot of EMT's running around thinking they are doctors and god forbid you come out of a fire and cough once next thing you know you're a high risk patient and must go to the hospital.
Now you have these new kids that want to be Scott qualified after 1 month in the company and suck down a full bottle at a car fire and are too tired to repack the pre-connect.
I will say it again IF YOU CAN'T GO THRU 2 BOTTLES AT A FIRE AND HELP WITH CLEANING UP AFTERWARDS YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS IN THE FIRE SERVICE.
Oh and Einstein nowhere in my post did I mention overhaul.
Bottom line Put the Wet Stuff on the Red Stuff and go home
Even Redneck's need an education, and I commend you on your EMT status! That is what you are lacking with your post by continuing to not realize that the vast amount of firefighter fatalities are not the firefighter being the the hero when the baby needs to be saved. They are for heart attacks. These physically stressful conditions that we work in are EXTREMELY taxing to our bodies and our hearts. The majority of firefighters do not, unfortunately, have a regular training/workout and go 110% at a job. A lot of us are overweight(not by admission!) If you are old school, that is fine. But educate yourself on a person not being able to perform another task after physically exhausting themselves.
Maybe you want to train the new guy about bottle/air management. Be pro-active "OLD-School" redneck guy. Or maybe you want to force the kid (who might be 35 or 40 years old) who is new, has adrenaline, is overweight in 95 degree weather to pack your hose without a breather. Set-up for a problem maybe?
If 10 guys need to be taken out of game and don't , and one dies, does old school win? OK, not ignorant.
signed, Einstein. peace.
Even Redneck's need an education, and I commend you on your EMT status! That is what you are lacking with your post by continuing to not realize that the vast amount of firefighter fatalities are not the firefighter being the the hero when the baby needs to be saved. They are for heart attacks. These physically stressful conditions that we work in are EXTREMELY taxing to our bodies and our hearts. The majority of firefighters do not, unfortunately, have a regular training/workout and go 110% at a job. A lot of us are overweight(not by admission!) If you are old school, that is fine. But educate yourself on a person not being able to perform another task after physically exhausting themselves.
Maybe you want to train the new guy about bottle/air management. Be pro-active "OLD-School" redneck guy. Or maybe you want to force the kid (who might be 35 or 40 years old) who is new, has adrenaline, is overweight in 95 degree weather to pack your hose without a breather. Set-up for a problem maybe?
If 10 guys need to be taken out of game and don't , and one dies, does old school win? OK, not ignorant.
signed, Einstein. peace.
Ok I will try and type this slowly I agree that if someone NEEDS to be taken out of the game then they should be (been there myself). The point you are missing and the whole point of my post is that these 10 guys did not need to be taken out of the game the needed a five minute breather and a bottle of water. They were taken out of the game because the EMS guys decided to start PCR's on them. What I am trying to say is that you do not need all sorts of formal rehab stations where PCR's are filled out . In the "good ole days" we went to the nearest medic he/she took our vitals gave us a drink a shot of O2 probably lite the cigarette for us and if all checked out ok sent us back in to the fight WITHOUT starting a major medical case which is the point I am trying to make. If you need a breather take one then start packing hose.
I am all for watching each others backs and making sure everyone goes home but it is coming soon that we just sit outside and lob water at a bedroom fire so that nobody might possibly be at risk.
Wanderer: does your FD offer free gym memberships?
You can offer free memberships, but the percentage of active fireman that take advantage of these on a regular basis(1-2x/week for the ENTIRE year) I would guess are very low. Would you think it is greater than 25% of active firefighters in your department? Some go for a while and then life gets busy,job,family,school,etc. Commissioners would probably have the numbers that could tell you what percent of their department goes to the gym if they pay for it. Free or not, if you want to workout to help yourself get in shape,save a life, extend yours, You will. Human nature has the Gym take the backseat for the greater majority of firefighters when it should be a priority.
You can offer free memberships, but the percentage of active fireman that take advantage of these on a regular basis(1-2x/week for the ENTIRE year) I would guess are very low. Would you think it is greater than 25% of active firefighters in your department? Some go for a while and then life gets busy,job,family,school,etc. Commissioners would probably have the numbers that could tell you what percent of their department goes to the gym if they pay for it. Free or not, if you want to workout to help yourself get in shape,save a life, extend yours, You will. Human nature has the Gym take the backseat for the greater majority of firefighters when it should be a priority.
So in a nut shell, what your getting at is that a good bunch of the active volunteer fire service, including yourself - needs to hit the gym? See, I know "redneck" and I know the kind of fireman that he is and the fire service that he was brought up in, I dunno, maybe it's just the total collapse of the alpha male, or perhaps it's that the MTV generation as produced too many X-box and Play Station firemen. There was a time where a firefighter out here could work all night, go through two or more cylinders and then clean up and still make work in the AM. I dunno, but if you need to call for a bus after packing hose, maybe you've chosen the wrong vocation.
Maybe if an overall fire service focus was a little different, people who didn't have the same conditioning (ability to go to a fire, do what is expected on the fireground and on the fire floor, clean up and go home without needing a bus) as guys like "redneck" would take the responsibility of keeping in shape in order to do this job like MEN.
See you at a parade this summer. How's your uniform fit?
So in a nut shell, what your getting at is that a good bunch of the active volunteer fire service, including yourself - needs to hit the gym? See, I know "redneck" and I know the kind of fireman that he is and the fire service that he was brought up in, I dunno, maybe it's just the total collapse of the alpha male, or perhaps it's that the MTV generation as produced too many X-box and Play Station firemen. There was a time where a firefighter out here could work all night, go through two or more cylinders and then clean up and still make work in the AM. I dunno, but if you need to call for a bus after packing hose, maybe you've chosen the wrong vocation.
Maybe if an overall fire service focus was a little different, people who didn't have the same conditioning (ability to go to a fire, do what is expected on the fireground and on the fire floor, clean up and go home without needing a bus) as guys like "redneck" would take the responsibility of keeping in shape in order to do this job like MEN.
See you at a parade this summer. How's your uniform fit?
You may reminisce all you want about how it was like when horses pulled rigs. Doesn't change reality. Your "Amen" was proof that there are those among the fireservice that put their ego's in front of the health and safety of our fellow brothers and sisters. Nothing I post will ever change that for you. But for the rest of us, learn everyday, adapt,and you can really make a diferrence. I won't beat a dead horse or post 5,000 more replies to this topic. I think redneck made his point and I respect him for that. See you at the gym. Peace.
So you have to be in top physical shape to be a firefighter, okay.... and nothing happens to those top shape firefighters after a job? You know whats funny I know a great NYC firefighter that was in great shape that passed away after a heart attack from a job.... hmmmmm guess he missed the gym that morning? Rehab is for everyone, I dont give a crap what size, shape, color, background you are... its for US. As far as the PCRs where Redneck was going with this, maybe that should come up at a department meeting? to the rescue company? Either way if you lose those 10 guys, let me tell ya, if I were one of them you know the FD doctor would be getting a call right away to get my ass back in service!
So you have to be in top physical shape to be a firefighter, okay.... and nothing happens to those top shape firefighters after a job? You know whats funny I know a great NYC firefighter that was in great shape that passed away after a heart attack from a job.... hmmmmm guess he missed the gym that morning? Rehab is for everyone, I dont give a crap what size, shape, color, background you are... its for US. As far as the PCRs where Redneck was going with this, maybe that should come up at a department meeting? to the rescue company? Either way if you lose those 10 guys, let me tell ya, if I were one of them you know the FD doctor would be getting a call right away to get my ass back in service!
Thank you somebody finally gets it. but it still did not help at that particular fire where we lost 10 guys at an early stage of the fire for no reason. Hopefully some departments will learn from this debate and offer a rehab area where we can rest for 5 min and still get back into the fire. Have a few medics standing by checking vitals WITHOUT starting PCR's on anyone who does not need it. Sometimes the best medicine is a soft seat and a 5 min breather.
Rehab & Evaluation
more replies to this topic. I think redneck made his point and I respect him for that. See you at the gym. Peace.
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