While taking a seminar down in baltimore the issue of solar panels was brought up...if I missed it posted here before I apologize for the dupe...as far as Solar Panels any unique problems?...masking roof conditions?...delaying the roof being opened up?...hard to navigate the roof?...whats everyones thoughts?
Fire fighters not trained in turning off both types of power supplying a house/building from the Lipa/National Grid side . When you thought just shutting the breakers off might be it. Then you have the storage of power from the solar panels. House/Building have almost two feeds and then some have generator connected to it all -so three sources of power to disconnect for fire fighter safety.
Took a class on solar panels through LIPA and FSA at Freeport 5 years ago maybe. The important thing to remember is that the panels are ALWAYS generating energy when exposed to any light source. And the current in solar systems are DC so one contact and its over. Even if a panel falls off a roof and is laying in the front yard, unless it is covered over with something that will not let in any light it will still generate power and zap anyone that touches it. Often the battery packs in home systems are located in a garage/shed/some kind of back yard container. You should be able to call up LILCO/LIPA/National Grid whoever they are this week and ask for any solar systems in your district. When we took the class they showed us every location in the 2nd Battalion. It was one of those good one night FYI classes.
A couple of things to remember, when ever the sun is out the panels are producing electric. I believe they produce about 75 Watts per panel DC, but the amprage is very high (the lower the watts the higher the amps). My understanding of the new systems are they only use converters, no batteries(you sell to LIPA during the day and buy during the night). Otherwise there would be too many other hazards from fumes and acids and batteries require too much space inside the home.
1) Panel power specifications vary between manufacturers greatly. I had a 30KW system installed at work with the panels rated @170Watt each. I have seen the specifications as high as 250W for a 6' x3' panel.
2) As long as light hits the panel some power will be generated. The more light the more power. To reduce its output, try covering the panel with a tarp. The power leads that come off the underside is where the hazardous voltage will be present.
Here is some excerpts from a fire service meeting in another state in an e-mail i received...
...presentation put on by the State of NJ last night at Amwell Valley Fire concerning solar panels and the danger they present to the Fire Service.
The presentation lasted for about 2 1/2 hours and was what I believe time well spent. It really opened my eyes to the potential danger and problems they will be for us for any dwelling fire we will encounter where they are present. I'm going to attempt to give everyone a quick snapshot of what was covered.
The thing to know with solar panels are that they cannot be shut down - they are ALWAYS ENERGIZED. And they are energized with up to 600 volts of DC current. For example, you cannot put an ax through them to open up a roof to vent - your putting the ax through 600 volts. If fire is infringing upon solar panels on the roof it will compromise the integrity of the panels. You then have 600 volts of live electrical energy - and what don't you do when you have live electrical energy? - you don't put water on it. Even if the roof burned through and the panels fell into the structure, unless the panels were destroyed (de-energized) by the fire and/or falling into the structure, they can still have the potential to be live,they have to be treated as such and have the potential of 600 volts of DC current.
A basic solar system consists of: The solar panels themselves; a combination box; a disconnect box; and a inverter. The panels all feed into a combination box. The combination box (which is almost always located on the roof) takes in all the energy and sends it to a disconnect box. The disconnect box takes the energy and then sends it into the inverter which converts the DC current into AC current. From there the AC energy "pushes" into the structure's normal electrical system.
The combination box has fuses in it that come from the solar panels themselves. If you access that box, you can pull all the fuses inside and "kill" anything after the combination box. But remember the panels are still live and have up to 600 volts in them. If you "kill" the energy at the disconnect box - anything up to that box is still energized - the solar panels, the combination box, the line going from the combination box into the structure and into the disconnect box are all still energized. The power company pulling the meter for normal service has no effect whatsoever on the solar panel system - it is all still live and has up to 600 volts of DC current. The only "good" thing when it comes to the disconnect box and the inverter is that they need to be co-located with the normal service panel for the structure and each should be marked as appropriate.
Even if it's nighttime and the solar panels have not been exposed to direct sunlight for several hours, they still are energized and can kill you. It is estimated that the panels would need to be covered with an opaque tarp for 7-10 days before the panels will "de-energized" down to minuscule levels. (although the handouts specify that this is an option for safety steps - it is not accurate per the presenter)
In closing there are people who have greater minds and resources than we do in developing a process to safely handle fires which may involve these systems - such as the NFPA, OSHA, etc. Per the presenter, the situation - and these organizations, are now starting to become aware of the potential problems. So far in the State of NJ , there is no recorded injury to a Firefighter being caused by coming into contact with a solar panel system. Ironically, New Jersey comes in 2nd when it comes to solar panel system installations in the nation, behind Califorina.
The final question which was asked really put things in prospective - someone asked that since Califorina is number one when it comes to Solar Panel Syatem installations, "...what do their Firefighters do when a structure fire involves these systems?" Answer was "... they let it burn!"
Please, I'm not suggesting that we adopt this strategy. But the reality is - I really don't have an answer and it seems as if the Fire Service industry, nor the Solar Panel Companies, don't either.
Just - please be aware and please be careful if you roll up to a structure where a solar panel system is installed - bottom line, if can kill you.
The simple answer is to treat these the same way you do "live wires down", because essentially, thats what they are.
As stated, even if the "disconnect" box is located, a charge still may be left in the cells.
And always remember, Volts dont kill, AMPS do!
Please clarify.Your post seems to confirm that they are dangerous but you than seem to negate by making that AMPS comment Are you saying that these are not as dangerous as the NJ seminar indicates. I think not! You can be giving false confidence to those members who only have basic electrical knowledge.
Please clarify.Your post seems to confirm that they are dangerous but you than seem to negate by making that AMPS comment Are you saying that these are not as dangerous as the NJ seminar indicates. I think not! You can be giving false confidence to those members who only have basic electrical knowledge.
How does it negate anything? I said treat them like "live wires down", DONT GO NEAR THEM!
They seem to be cropping up a little more recently. When you install these you would need to get into contact with LIPA or whomever, but are FD's notified? Anybody with expierence in this
When we took the class in Freeport 5 or so years ago, the LIPA guy gave a list to each department of houses in their town. You probably could call up and get the information. Also a good thing to put on the CIDS sheet. When you go to any house or building for any call--PREPLAN IT.
Usually they will be located on one side of the roof (Southern Exposure) in a residential situation. I have to agree with MFD594 "Treat them as you would live wires." If you can vent on the other side then do that. I would not mess around with them. This is definitely a situation where you have to analyze "Risk vs Reward". If there is no life hazard, why get hurt over them?
From firefighterclosecalls.com by Matt Paiss,California State Fire Marshals PV Task Force
1. Panels are only energized in daylight. Overcast days too, but NEVER at night. Scene lights will NOT energize the panels.
2. If the panels, or the roof are on fire, you will not get shocked by spraying water on them. Put the fire out.
3. The voltages of panels are anywhere from 24-48 volts each and generate from 125 to 200 watts in optimal conditions.
These panels are "strung" together in series to increase the voltages to 120 vdc to 400 vdc. While 600 vdc is possible, it is pushing the UL ratings of the enclosures, etc.. The current of these strings is usually from 5-9 amps. And that is only when there is a load (or put more simply, the inverter is sending the power back into the grid). If the inverter is off, there is no current only voltage, i.e. open circuit.
4. The inverters that change the power from DC to AC, are powered by AC. If you shut off the main service breakers, the inverter is OFF and there is NO AC power being sent into the structure. There are capacitors in the inverters that can hold a charge for about 5 min, but in the daytime the panels are producing power anyway. When the sun goes down....everything is de-energized.
FIREFIGHTER WARNING:
There is ALWAYS energized DC power in the conduit from the panels to the inverter IN THE DAYTIME. So, secure all utilities (per SOP's) and stay away from the panels and the conduit in the daytime. That is the danger.
5. Do not break a panel with your axe or related forcible entry tools. Each panel in the string could be carrying the FULL VOLTAGE of that string (120-400 VDC), not just one panel, so if you put a tool through it, you will very likely be getting the rest of the shift off....so don't do it....there is no need to do it, vent somewhere else, and kill the utilities at the main panel based upon your SOP's.
6. There are often junction boxes on the roofs (residential systems). If they do have fuses (not all do), and you pull a fuse while under load, you will very likely cause a fire. Not to mention the time it will take to open the box and do this. Bad idea-leave it alone.
7. In California, we will not let a house burn because it has PV Panels on the roof. I may not be able to put my hole in the best place, but I will put one in where I can when required.
If you have any questions or comments for Matt, he can be reached thru our submissions page: FirefighterCloseCalls.Com - Home of the Secret List
Firefighters and Officers should do their best within their own FD SOP's, to know where in their 1st due area they have these panels...thru pre-planning. Once they are identified, determine the plan before the fire and do followup thru the installer/mfg of the panels. We will also have links to a video and related info posted soon so you can further learn and followup.
Here is some excerpts from a fire service meeting in another state in an e-mail i received...
...presentation put on by the State of NJ last night at Amwell Valley Fire concerning solar panels and the danger they present to the Fire Service.
The presentation lasted for about 2 1/2 hours and was what I believe time well spent. It really opened my eyes to the potential danger and problems they will be for us for any dwelling fire we will encounter where they are present. I'm going to attempt to give everyone a quick snapshot of what was covered.
The thing to know with solar panels are that they cannot be shut down - they are ALWAYS ENERGIZED. And they are energized with up to 600 volts of DC current. For example, you cannot put an ax through them to open up a roof to vent - your putting the ax through 600 volts. If fire is infringing upon solar panels on the roof it will compromise the integrity of the panels. You then have 600 volts of live electrical energy - and what don't you do when you have live electrical energy? - you don't put water on it. Even if the roof burned through and the panels fell into the structure, unless the panels were destroyed (de-energized) by the fire and/or falling into the structure, they can still have the potential to be live,they have to be treated as such and have the potential of 600 volts of DC current.
A basic solar system consists of: The solar panels themselves; a combination box; a disconnect box; and a inverter. The panels all feed into a combination box. The combination box (which is almost always located on the roof) takes in all the energy and sends it to a disconnect box. The disconnect box takes the energy and then sends it into the inverter which converts the DC current into AC current. From there the AC energy "pushes" into the structure's normal electrical system.
The combination box has fuses in it that come from the solar panels themselves. If you access that box, you can pull all the fuses inside and "kill" anything after the combination box. But remember the panels are still live and have up to 600 volts in them. If you "kill" the energy at the disconnect box - anything up to that box is still energized - the solar panels, the combination box, the line going from the combination box into the structure and into the disconnect box are all still energized. The power company pulling the meter for normal service has no effect whatsoever on the solar panel system - it is all still live and has up to 600 volts of DC current. The only "good" thing when it comes to the disconnect box and the inverter is that they need to be co-located with the normal service panel for the structure and each should be marked as appropriate.
Even if it's nighttime and the solar panels have not been exposed to direct sunlight for several hours, they still are energized and can kill you. It is estimated that the panels would need to be covered with an opaque tarp for 7-10 days before the panels will "de-energized" down to minuscule levels. (although the handouts specify that this is an option for safety steps - it is not accurate per the presenter)
In closing there are people who have greater minds and resources than we do in developing a process to safely handle fires which may involve these systems - such as the NFPA, OSHA, etc. Per the presenter, the situation - and these organizations, are now starting to become aware of the potential problems. So far in the State of NJ , there is no recorded injury to a Firefighter being caused by coming into contact with a solar panel system. Ironically, New Jersey comes in 2nd when it comes to solar panel system installations in the nation, behind Califorina.
The final question which was asked really put things in prospective - someone asked that since Califorina is number one when it comes to Solar Panel Syatem installations, "...what do their Firefighters do when a structure fire involves these systems?" Answer was "... they let it burn!"
Please, I'm not suggesting that we adopt this strategy. But the reality is - I really don't have an answer and it seems as if the Fire Service industry, nor the Solar Panel Companies, don't either.
Just - please be aware and please be careful if you roll up to a structure where a solar panel system is installed - bottom line, if can kill you.
Urban Legend
This came up on the other site. At least three posters say it is completely false.
On thing that really makes my BS flag go up is the line since California is number one when it comes to Solar Panel System installations, "...what do their Firefighters do when a structure fire involves these systems?" Answer was "... they let it burn!" That sounds an awful lot like the scare tactics used by hoax chain messages and also runs counter to how the fire service operates. We routinely face hazards greater than a charged 600v electrical system and we don't just let them burn. It just doesn't pass the smell test to me....
Here is an SOP from a department in California addressing solar panels. It was adopted in 2007.....
And..... if you need to make a hole in the roof, would you not go above or beside the gobbing big hunk of metal, glass and plastic and just cut the roof?
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