Wannabe - While I can appreciate your eagerness to jump in and give your opinion, maybe you should step back for a second and analyze what you wrote.
The information your provided is only half correct and your quest to get the info out, while comendable is unfinished. You are correct with all of the units that were called, however what you are not including is some of those units went to standby at the firehouse. Included in your list was GNV, who were actually mutually aided to EAST williston (according to a fellow ranter) and not to this fire at all.
From my count it appears there was 5 engines (including WP) 4 Ladders (including a fast team) a heavy rescue, some ambulances,a cascade and a fieldcom unit (not sure if fieldcom actually got to the scene)
Lets analyze the units coming in. During the daytime, some companies are lucky to get 4 guys (you noted 6, this may have been on a good day), so we will use 4 guys per apparatus as our starting point. 5 engines = 20 FF's right? WRONG -5 for the chauffers and you now have 15. Now use the same concept for the other units. 4 ladders minus drivers would be 12 right? WRONG again, the FAST DOES NOT COUNT! So that gives you only 9 truckies and then 3 guys from rescue. I will even throw you a bone and say 2 of the 3 truck co. chauffers geared up to work. That gives you a total response of 29 Firefighters. I didnt include cascade, because in some depts the cascade unit (used to switch out and/or fill empty bottles) is a van driven and operated by 1 member.
So you have 29 firefighters to fight this fire. Now you mentioned about the 2nd and 3rd alarm responses. I do not know how the procedure works, but I believe all the mutual aid mentioned previously IS the 2nd and 3rd alarms (someone correct me if I am wrong)
So 29 firefighters to fight the fire. Incident command had to be set up, safety officer, guys on handlines (looks like at least 3 lines were stretched, guys to throw ladders, guys to vent, guys to search. not to mention it seems the fire took off from the basement and appears to have gone throughout the house. (i am sure more FF's showed up at the scene, but they probably relieved the members who got there first)
All in all it may seem like alot, but isn’t it ALWAYS better to have more than less? Tell the guys from the first engine who sounded like they were there for a few minutes by themselves that TOO many FF's came to the scene to help.
Oh yeah...during all of this there was a CO call with upwards up 5 aided (used up another truck co/rescue and possibly 5 ambulances)
The fact of the matter is none of us were there, we don’t know the conditions, we don’t know the manpower, we don’t know the situation…
Give some slack to the IC he called what he thought was needed. Until you get a little more wet behind the ears just watch, listen and learn
I'm a 36 year member and I think thats alot of equipment . not picking on williston park this is becoming the norm for house fires all thru NC . There comes a time when all the kings horses and all the kings men could not put humpty dumpty together again. any house sustaining that much damage and the crews pulled out its time to control the fire and protect expousers and everyone goes home safe. the house has to be rebuilt theres no saving it and you don't need half the county to accomplish that; and by the way pulling
needed daytime manpower away from all those districts poses another problem. I believe we have to smarten up with our resources and come to the reality that houses do burn down and and that at a point it is beyond our control for safety should be our 1st priority and thats hwy the sell fire insurence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CAR11
WELL SAID!!!!
Yes, Well Said.
I'm not familiar with how Nassau Depts. respond on M/A's. I do know that rigs roll short during the daytime hours. Because there's much equipment at a scene, it doesn't mean that you have that much manpower.
Here in the land of 1-8-0 (Suffolk), it depends on the alarm. During M/A's for RIT/FAST we run a full crew (driver,officer and 4 Class A F.F.'s in the back). For other M/A's we try to get out with a full crew.
Its funny i bet the people that are bashing Williston Park OIC for maybe having overkill at this fire were at home or at thier firehouse listening. As the OIC of a fire there are a gazillion things going through your mind very half a secondn, and you have to make split thinking decesions. Is there enough resources at the scene , do i need stand by coverage at HQ , and i think they had atleast 1 other call during this fire. Are " My Men " safe ETC. Nobody should really ever question how the way anyone runs a fire in thier own district and especially if they werent even there.
Wannabe - While I can appreciate your eagerness to jump in and give your opinion, maybe you should step back for a second and analyze what you wrote.
The information your provided is only half correct and your quest to get the info out, while comendable is unfinished. You are correct with all of the units that were called, however what you are not including is some of those units went to standby at the firehouse. Included in your list was GNV, who were actually mutually aided to EAST williston (according to a fellow ranter) and not to this fire at all.
From my count it appears there was 5 engines (including WP) 4 Ladders (including a fast team) a heavy rescue, some ambulances,a cascade and a fieldcom unit (not sure if fieldcom actually got to the scene)
Lets analyze the units coming in. During the daytime, some companies are lucky to get 4 guys (you noted 6, this may have been on a good day), so we will use 4 guys per apparatus as our starting point. 5 engines = 20 FF's right? WRONG -5 for the chauffers and you now have 15. Now use the same concept for the other units. 4 ladders minus drivers would be 12 right? WRONG again, the FAST DOES NOT COUNT! So that gives you only 9 truckies and then 3 guys from rescue. I will even throw you a bone and say 2 of the 3 truck co. chauffers geared up to work. That gives you a total response of 29 Firefighters. I didnt include cascade, because in some depts the cascade unit (used to switch out and/or fill empty bottles) is a van driven and operated by 1 member.
So you have 29 firefighters to fight this fire. Now you mentioned about the 2nd and 3rd alarm responses. I do not know how the procedure works, but I believe all the mutual aid mentioned previously IS the 2nd and 3rd alarms (someone correct me if I am wrong)
So 29 firefighters to fight the fire. Incident command had to be set up, safety officer, guys on handlines (looks like at least 3 lines were stretched, guys to throw ladders, guys to vent, guys to search. not to mention it seems the fire took off from the basement and appears to have gone throughout the house. (i am sure more FF's showed up at the scene, but they probably relieved the members who got there first)
All in all it may seem like alot, but isn’t it ALWAYS better to have more than less? Tell the guys from the first engine who sounded like they were there for a few minutes by themselves that TOO many FF's came to the scene to help.
Oh yeah...during all of this there was a CO call with upwards up 5 aided (used up another truck co/rescue and possibly 5 ambulances)
The fact of the matter is none of us were there, we don’t know the conditions, we don’t know the manpower, we don’t know the situation…
Give some slack to the IC he called what he thought was needed. Until you get a little more wet behind the ears just watch, listen and learn
The bull shi*t monday morning quarter backs should keep their shi*t comments to themselves. Because thats what you guys start shi*t. I was at the scene and at the command post during most of the operation. The I/C did a great job. As did Williston Park and all the M/A Dept.'s. There was a heavy volume of fire and alot of work to be done. Yes there was alot of apparatus/manpower at the scene for a working fire of a P/D. Given the volume of fire and the time of day when manpower is limited, the manpower and apparatus was necessary. The manpower and resources that were called were put to work and assigned to different tasks. From our Dept. E814 and L813 responded scene. The G.N.V. Fire Co. sent one engine to S/B at our headquarters to cover our village. Overall I have to say a job well done by all. Thanks to 830 for your assistance today.
WOW, Fire Fighters bashing Fire Fighters. Hope Newsrag isn't reading this. Let the IC run his department as he see fit. How about, I hope everyone is ok, a pat on the back for morale. Oh thats right Fire Fighters don't need morale. Its sad when so many people second and third guess. In case we all forgot, the IC has to make decisions based on his current and potential needs. If he decides to call for more help at that time so be it. Lets not be back seat drivers, let the IC do his job. To all Williston Park Brothers and Sisters hope your all safe. IC, I say to you, good job, don't be intimidated at the next call, go with your gut feeling. Stay Safe All.
Ahhh and once again, we steer right off track and into the path of questioning what the OIC chose to do. Look how many posts there are about the actual fire and progress and what we can LEARN from things that were done, and then look at all the posts regarding the M/A !!! So the OIC called in what he did, so what! If he felt there was god reason for it then so be it! Christ, we go from depts not calling for enough help to depts calling for too much help!! Stop posting for the sake of posting. And the reason crap like this gets deleted is because it is just that, CRAP! We are here to promote the fire service, learn and support each other, not sit behind a keyboard and criticize !!
I'm sorry Jedi, I just feel the need to say something. And this is the rant.
A balloon frame house is a fire for 30 firemen to start, not end with. We started with 8. And it stayed that way for a good 10 minutes. 8 firemen to man 1 line, and 1 interior truck team. That's it. Daytime response? I think we got that nailed for being short handed on a daytime signal 10.
As for the m/a? An Ex-Captain was the I/C for the first 10 minutes too. So guess how many guys that leaves to fight the fire?
Fire started in the basement 2/3 corner from a dryer. It went up the 2 side and 3 side wall and was playing in there for we don't know how long. The homeowner tried unsuccessfully to knock it down with her extinguisher. A village employee joined her, and took her out of the house as conditions worsened. The first line went for a quick knockdown through the side door, down the stairs. I joined them as the first due truck officer within seconds of their decent. As we were putting water on the fire in the basement, the first floor flashed, blowing out the windows in the front of the house. No sh*t, it really happened. Now its on the first floor, in the walls, in the walls on the second floor, and everywhere else.
But I'm sure those who commented on our performance knew that. Thanks to those who think we called too much M/A. I don't know about you, but seeing 4 guys in plain clothes lay on a line on the front porch kinda necessitates a little bit of help.
Our thanks to Roslyn, Albertson, Garden City Park, Mineola, East Williston, Garden City, NHP, Westbury, Carle Place, MLFD, and whoever else I missed, who all came short staffed to help.
A special thanks to those guys from Garden City Park who buffed the job and helped stretch the second line in street clothes. Send me the cleaning bill brothers, I'll gladly pay.
To the probies who shot their mouths off, STFU until you get off probation. You don't know WTF you are talking about. 1 month in the fire service does not give you any right to comment on any fire until you have been down a few hallways, and gotten off probation. Is it no suprise we called so much help, when other companies toned out 2 or 3 times to get their own rigs out to help us? To the 36 YEAR MEMBER, I'd expect better out of you. Apparently you either come from a place that can turn out more than 8 guys midday, or you have been standing on the front lawn for 35 of your last 36 years. And to whoever stated there were too many rescue trucks on the scene, I could care less... come in a horse cart for all I care, just come to work.
Any comments or questions, feel free to pm or email. This is just one fireman's take.
Thank you.
Stay Safe.
DC
Last edited by 27indabeach : 03-11-2010 at 07:14 AM.
#27 very well said .. too much BS second guessing from people sitting home listening to the scanner having no idea what is actually taking place at the scene.
ahhh technology, the only thing worse than the lawn jockeys critiquing the real firefighters is now we have people on the internet critiquing the real firefighters. 27 don't let them get to you. Keep doing what you do so they can pretend they do it too.
The split thread has been closed, so a little more info to answer what several asked: The Ghostbuster Guy lives in town & likes to decorate his ride - looks even better around Christmas. More info needed, he's uually @ the Grasshopper Comic Book store on Hillside Ave (near Cross St)
Great job by Williston Park, the fire went out and no one was seriously hurt. I have no negative comments on the IC, the line officers or the firefighters. Firefigthing is a tough job that requires tons of support from 4 guys on an engine to an IC to a dispatcher to the cops, and the utility companies.
My point has been made numerous times on this page and on the original page, the problem is staffing. We don't have enough firefighters available during the day and in a lot of places even at night to provide the level of service and protection our communities have come expect. Sure, we can get the ambulance out for a bs ems run, or we can cover the bs co call, or the bs A/A call. But a single company cannot sufficiently staff a working housefire alone. And unfortunately, the barometer that is being used by the outside powers is that "no one has died." What they can't verablize is the most important word in that sentence. 'Yet.' Without sufficient staffing we open ourselves up for disaster. We expose ourselves (nevermind the civilians) to a much greater chance of a serious catastrophe causing great harm. I am not a fatalist, I do not believe the sky is falling, but I do believe we need to try to make a change to our current way of responding to calls. All too often the pride of the fire company gets in the way of our ability to ask for help. Companies shy away from automatic mutual because "we can handle it." We need to get away from that mindset, and open ourselves up to more creative solutions to an age old problem.
As for the "rundown" that I posted earlier, I surprised so many people jumped on the inaccuracies. I was very clear at the start that I was consolidating what had already been posted. I believe as others said before that this and all fires are learning experiences. We should take the lessons from this experience that we can take so that we can move forward and be better firefighters in the fires (I really hope there are more to come) in the future.
It honestly shouldn't matter how many trucks were called in for mutual aid. Considering the typical weekday/during the afternoon type of crew that Williston Park had, I think the amount of mutual aid was a great call by the OIC. Also you have to factor in, maybe some of the mutual aid crews rolling in also had light crews. The last time I checked mutual aid is requested for additional manpower and equipment- who cares how many depts. were called; the job got done and no one was injured.
Anyway good job WP and all M/A depts.
It honestly shouldn't matter how many trucks were called in for mutual aid....
You're right! The equipment doesn't matter. The fact that units are responding understaffed is what matters. When an incident commander requests an additional company or 100 additional companies the IC expects those units to be completely staffed. I ask the folks who read this, what is minimum staffing in your belief for a piece of fire apparatus to respond?
This topic is always debated. I believe for a call in town rigs should roll driver+shotgun, and let everyone else meet you there in there personal vehicles. (There are those who think this is crazy) But for M/A rigs should never roll without a full crew. In a perfect world I would say dont bother crowding the block with your rig on a M/A if your coming with less than 6 FF's.
and everbody is sooo upset at newsday for pointing this very scenario out in that report a few years ago. Long Island fire service needs to get their shit together to justify having all that fancy equipment. If you cant roll it brother you dont need it!!
This topic is always debated. I believe for a call in town rigs should roll driver+shotgun, and let everyone else meet you there in there personal vehicles. (There are those who think this is crazy) But for M/A rigs should never roll without a full crew. In a perfect world I would say dont bother crowding the block with your rig on a M/A if your coming with less than 6 FF's.
This may be true Upstate with long response times to the firehouse and/or the scene, but down here that just overloads the fire block.
Down here in Baltimore county the standard response for a dwelling fire is
4 engines
1 truck
1 squad
1 chief
Each piece has 4 personal any that responds understaffed is backed up with an additional piece.
Apartments or commercial structures get a second truck
A working fire, signal 10, all hands or what ever you call it gets additional equipment
1 engine for RIT/FAST
1 truck or squad which ever is closer
1 als ambulance
1 air cascade
1 additional chief to be safety officer
37 total staffing on the first alarm minimum
Only one engine is dispatched from each company
It really doesn’t sound like to much from where I come from but more should be dispatched on the initial dispatch it’s hard to make up for lost time waiting for staffing to arrive
we have rules about not parking on the fire block or on any corners. It works fine and it has for years.
Well, I was previously in a department who had a neighboring department that responded that way and they blocked up OUR fire blocks with POVs on more than one occasion. However if it works where you are, so be it.
I'm sorry Jedi, I just feel the need to say something. And this is the rant.
A balloon frame house is a fire for 30 firemen to start, not end with. We started with 8. And it stayed that way for a good 10 minutes. 8 firemen to man 1 line, and 1 interior truck team. That's it. Daytime response? I think we got that nailed for being short handed on a daytime signal 10.
As for the m/a? An Ex-Captain was the I/C for the first 10 minutes too. So guess how many guys that leaves to fight the fire?
Fire started in the basement 2/3 corner from a dryer. It went up the 2 side and 3 side wall and was playing in there for we don't know how long. The homeowner tried unsuccessfully to knock it down with her extinguisher. A village employee joined her, and took her out of the house as conditions worsened. The first line went for a quick knockdown through the side door, down the stairs. I joined them as the first due truck officer within seconds of their decent. As we were putting water on the fire in the basement, the first floor flashed, blowing out the windows in the front of the house. No sh*t, it really happened. Now its on the first floor, in the walls, in the walls on the second floor, and everywhere else.
But I'm sure those who commented on our performance knew that. Thanks to those who think we called too much M/A. I don't know about you, but seeing 4 guys in plain clothes lay on a line on the front porch kinda necessitates a little bit of help.
Our thanks to Roslyn, Albertson, Garden City Park, Mineola, East Williston, Garden City, NHP, Westbury, Carle Place, MLFD, and whoever else I missed, who all came short staffed to help.
A special thanks to those guys from Garden City Park who buffed the job and helped stretch the second line in street clothes. Send me the cleaning bill brothers, I'll gladly pay.
To the probies who shot their mouths off, STFU until you get off probation. You don't know WTF you are talking about. 1 month in the fire service does not give you any right to comment on any fire until you have been down a few hallways, and gotten off probation. Is it no suprise we called so much help, when other companies toned out 2 or 3 times to get their own rigs out to help us? To the 36 YEAR MEMBER, I'd expect better out of you. Apparently you either come from a place that can turn out more than 8 guys midday, or you have been standing on the front lawn for 35 of your last 36 years. And to whoever stated there were too many rescue trucks on the scene, I could care less... come in a horse cart for all I care, just come to work.
Any comments or questions, feel free to pm or email. This is just one fireman's take.
Thank you.
Stay Safe.
DC
dc nice post keep up the good work and if your IC called all one of these bashers to the scene and gave them one ounce of work they would never have said a word......... you can always turn units back but you never know what you are going to get if anything at all especially daytime.
I was on 8744....to my knowledge....the last unit to be called to the scene. The fire was out but there was still overhaul work for us. If the last unit called to the scene is put to work then it sounds to me like the proper amount of M/A was called. Nice job by Williston Park command.
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