You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!
If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.
This article appears on the Rant's home page, and was written by Bill Whitney (BW4502)
The Fire service sometimes faces one of the worst diseases known to mankind: the Craniumanalosis. This disease is so intense and ramped that many times it affects our daily operations. The only known cure for Craniumanalosis is to have the dreaded operation known as the Craniumanalectomy -- or the removing of our head from our ass. The disease is known to destroy good officers as well as the most talented firefighters and EMS workers. There are even chiefs (dear God…may it never be!!) who have fallen prey to the power of Craniumanalosis, as witnessed through the plethora of YOU MUST, NEVER, and ALWAYS signs and symptoms. Some of the most pointed symptoms are as follows:
1. “The Truck must ALWAYS park at the front of the building”. Now think about this. If it’s a one story, who the heck cares -- realistically? If the building is 125’ off the road, who cares? Common sense should tell you to park where your truck will do the most good...not a flat “that’s the way it will always be” type of a rule.
2. “The first arriving Engine will ALWAYS take a hydrant”. Hang on, I’m choking here. Again -- think about this gang. If you arrive at a one or two room “room & contents fire” and can’t handle the initial knock-down with a couple hundred gallons of H2O, you need to go back to school and practice your craft some more. A structure fire is a different animal than a room & contents, right? So why have a silly rule that says you ALWAYS have to hit a hydrant? Let’s start thinking about what will mitigate the problem in the quickest manner instead of a silly-assed rule.
3. “You must NEVER vent a lightweight truss roof! It’s too dangerous!” Ummm....if there is no fire in the attic --where’s the danger? Fire on the floor below? Great! Open up the top, punch through the ceiling; provide ventilation and relief for the guys/gals inside. But to say “NEVER”? What are you thinking? Obviously you’ve never been “the guy inside”.
4. “The only nozzle I’ll ever use is a ___________ nozzle. I will NEVER use that one.” Fill in the blank with smooth bore or combination, I don’t care. Let’s face it, the most effective nozzle is the one that you are trained to use and of course, the one you have in your hands! Face the facts in that both are great for specific applications and both will work with almost every application IF YOU ACTUALLY TRAIN WITH IT. One may be better than the other from time to time, however.
5. “I can ALWAYS say and do whatever I want when I’m not at the station.” OMG -- how silly is that one! Yes, mental giant, you can say and do whatever you want when not on duty. Just remember that the public looks at you as “911” 24/7 until the day comes when you finally toss in the helmet. Do your actions have to be above reproach? Absolutely. Any more questions?
6. “We should ALWAYS take anyone who wants to be a firefighter.” Okay, look, if you want the best, then be the best, act like the best, look like the best, and constantly raise your standards until you get there. You do NOT have to take every “thing” that walks through the door and can make an “X” on an application. Toughen your standards and you’ll start to attract the best because it’s “hard to get into” and word gets out. Kinda like the Marines in that they are looking for “A Few Good Men”. If you are using the “mirror” application method, get rid of it! For those who are not familiar with this application process, it works like this:
A. Have the applicant stand straight and tall with their hands at their sides.
B. Place a mirror under the applicant’s nose but above their upper lip.
C. Instruct the applicant to breathe out through their nose ONLY.
D. If you see vapor on the mirror, hire the applicant as they pass the entrance test.
7. “The ONLY way to protect an exposure is to use “this line” or “that type of line”. Wrong-o Bubba. The best way to protect an exposure is to put out the dang fire or don’t let it spread!
8. “The junior guys should ALWAYS have to do all the clean up or whatever other crappy job we can think of because it’s what WE had to do”. Hmmm...maybe that’s why you’re not attracting more potential firefighters? Ever hear of respect? Train and treat your personnel to be exceptional firefighters and not exceptional monkeys.
Simply stated, do what is right for your department, your personnel, and more importantly, what is right for each individual incident. Every call is a little different and always will be. There are different factors to take into consideration for each individual incident. Your job is to apply the “right process” at the “right time” with the “right intensity”.
Game over. You’ll win! Besides, that damn Craniumanalectomy hurts and you typically do not have the luxury of anesthetics. Now “man-up”, grow some balls (if applicable and possible) and just “DO THE RIGHT THING”.
Bill Whitney is an Assistant Chief of the Milton Fire Department (Washington state), and is the President of Outreach Emergency Services Program; a non-profit organization that assists in the development of Fire/Rescue, EMS and Communications programs in developing countries throughout the world. Visit the OESP site here .
#
Last edited by Rant Boss : 08-14-2008 at 09:35 PM.
Always grab a hydrant..... sorry chief, you ALWAYS grab a hydrant.
Completely agree. What happens when the small fire you thought was contents is actually a large fire that has spread to other floors and is roaring above you. If the little bit of extra time it takes to hit the hydrant turns a room and contents fire into something more then either the fire was bigger than you first thought or you need more training on hitting hydrants. (Of course if you are upstate and the nearest hydrant is a mile away operations differ, but for 98% of LI, hit the hydrant).
Ah....ya gotta love a little controversy...right? So let's take a closer look at "ALWAYS, NEVERS", etc.
Hydrants are always an interesting topic. Let's zero in on the two or three "room and contents" fire variations. You have a choice that you make initially. You can Stop on and grab a hydrant and lay in on the way in, you can park at the hydrant and lay your handlines to the fire, or you can possibly stop directly at the fire....set up ops and start flowing water...and THEN have your driver hand-jack the supply line to the hydrant.
It's all a game of playing the various options that you have available...all of which work.
1. "Immediately" start ops off of tank water were-in:
A. You may only need a couple hundred gallons as depicted in the scenario.
B. Your driver connects to the hydrant after attack water is started.
C. This will take away "30-60 seconds" of advance time for the fire.
2. Take a hydrant before starting operations.
A. You'll NEVER go wrong with this option.
B. Consider the described scenario, you're allowing another 30-60 seconds of time for the fire to work. And what does fire do every 60 seconds (roughly)?
3. Consider that if each engine carries 500 gallons (obviously depends on your engine), you'll have 2000 gallons sitting in the street.
A. The extreme scenario, but often forgotten when there are hydrant "issues".
B. Definitely not highly recommended...but when stuff goes bad in hydrant world, in the scenario described, you'll have 10X the amount of water that you'll initially need.
The "ALWAYS" taking a hydrant deal at a structure fire is never a bad idea and is in fact a great idea and is more a question of WHEN you "take it".
I disagree with the Hydrant issue... ( The Chiefs Version that is)
Not mandating that Engine Companies get there own water supply is playing Russian roullete. Engine Companies should always have a plan to get their own water.
But what was more troubling to me was the Truss Roof suggestion.
Fires in truss constructed (non sprinklered inparticular) buildings KILL FIREFIGHTERS. This is not an opinion it is a FACT. It is has long been established by Fire Service Experts such as Frank Brannigan and Tom Brennan ( God rest Their souls) that Firefighters do not belong on roofs of truss construction. In fact, a quote from Frank Brannigan's book, "Building Construction for the Fire Service" states 2 things. 1. BEWARE OF THE TRUSS, 2. IF A FIRE IN A STRUCTURE WITH A TRUSS CONSTRUCTED ROOF IS HOT ENOUGH THAT IT NEEDS TO BE VENTED, THEN FIREFIGHTERS DO NOT BELONG ON THE ROOF. and if we are holding #2 to be a true statement, then what would also be a logical conclusion is that Firefighters do not belong in that structure anymore because of the collapse danger.
The problem with Chief Whitney's statement is that he says is "if no fire has entered the attic space." And I guess that is a good thing , but if there is no fire in the attic space, then why are you opening a peaked roof to begin with? But that another topic and thread already started on here. Anyway, the idea of cutting a peaked roof of truss construction is not one that you would get many Fire Service people to agree with. The other problem I have with it is, his theroy relies on fire not being in the attic space. My question is in a heavy smoke condition how do you tell for sure? Smoke spreads fire, and fire only needs the diameter of a pencil to spread from one void space to another. In other words, in the dynamic enviornment of the fireground, in this type of structure, it may be too late before you realize that fire has spread to the trusses. And don't always assume that you are dealing with trusses in just the attic space either, the floors may also be constructed of the same.
It is obvious that Chief Whitney subscribes to the "Venting" of the peaked roof with the previous posting of the "Vent Mans Creed" and picture associated with it.
I respectfully disagree with his statement that there are never any times on the fireground that a "never" should be used. Truss roofs and venting of the same should NEVER be done by firefighters who are standing on them.
I'm gonna have to disagree with you too BW. Engines on hydrants and supplying their own water source is of the utmost importance. If no hydrant is available, the Chauff. or driver of said engine must notify the second engine that he needs a water source, and to supply him with one. This ensures that at least one, if not two engines will have positive water sources to combat any fire condition seen or unseen. On LI, most areas have hydrants that are 500 feet away. some villages have them 250 - 300 feet away from each other. Engines can connect to hydants two on a block if necessary. For those areas with hydrants 1000 feet away; those companies have 5" supply line, probably upwards of 1000' or more on the back step. This situation provides not only for the most important part of firefighting, (water on fire and positive water source to ensure continuous supply) but also provides room for the truck to have the front of the building. Yes, I said it. Be it a ranch or 6 story H, the truck needs to be there. Firefighters who battle a contents only fire or a three alarm blaze should be given any and every opportunity to get out when they need to. So should the occupants. Without that aerial device, or those portable ladders close, things could go from bad to worse. I'm sure if you are on this rant, and being a man about the fire service, you have seen the video of a fireman in a window looking for help as the room rolls over right above him sticking out the window. At this time, it takes a few seconds to get the aerial ladder to help him get out the window without getting roasted, but what if the engine was in front and the aerial was blocked out? In my honest opinion, I believe we would have went to another funeral. And this is in an area of NY where the truck always gets the front of the building... what about that fire in Canada where the entire engine co. comes out the front of the house as the second floor lit up on them? I believe these are enough examples to provide reason for my idea. If not for us, then who? Pushing engine companies to hydrants and the truck to the front of the building is, at least, for us. If you don't agree... honestly, get over your bloated ego. It's to save US. For those times when there is no fire, or a small one, it presents an opportunity for units and their members to practice getting into position. This way when we do need it, it will then become second nature.
I'm gonna have to disagree with you too BW. Engines on hydrants and supplying their own water source is of the utmost importance. If no hydrant is available, the Chauff. or driver of said engine must notify the second engine that he needs a water source, and to supply him with one. This ensures that at least one, if not two engines will have positive water sources to combat any fire condition seen or unseen.
Stay Safe
I believe your disagreeing with your own theory here. engines should have hydrants-- I totally agree, If no hydrant available? Well right there the first due is not securing a water source.....
Sometimes, you gotta bite the big one and walk around a block to the scene, but securing a water source is the Number 1 responsiblility of that rig. Mr BW I feel that this mentality and option may work more for a career dept where you know engine xyz is going to be 2 minutes out, even that may be too long. its a risky practice and definitely has the possiblity of reward if executed correctly, but has even a greater risk of injury or sacrifice. Now I will go out of the box to get things done in a fast manner but jeopardizing any of the men on the back step is never an option. when shit goes downhill and the investigation shows that the engine wasnt on a hydrant and the men just ran out of water, thats not going to be a good day. KISS..... take a hyrdant!
Hey Bruce and 27.....good thought process and obviously you put a little time/effort into your comments. Excellent and thanks for speaking up. It's pretty easy to just take a pot shot....and it's constructive to explain your thoughts and positions.
So let's touch on this a bit more. 27 - No disagreement at all about setting up out front of a 6 floor H or 4 floor T, Garden, etc. No disagreement at all and is pretty standard for you...as well as "us" in that respect. Whether it's the front, corners, back, it just needs to be where the truck can have it's best access for scrub/rescue/etc. However, to take up real estate in front of a building that is a single story residence that is 125' off the road...mmmm....no. The value of the apparatus (in this instance) is negated by the type/size of the building and the distance. However, if you carry tools that you will need, and your engines don't carry them, and the extra 100' of walking is an issue....then park out front. Just understand there are more options...which I think you do.
Regarding the 200-300' between hydrants...I can relate to that. 1000'....I will totally concede, without issue, that trying to hand jack a 5" back/forward to the hydrant by the engineer is going to be to time intensive. Hell...I wouldn't ask our folks to do it either! 300' or less.....then go for it. The other variables are head pressure and volume that are capable from the hydrant. If your static pressure is beyond 60-70psi...then 300' of 5" is not even a factor and certainly you can spot your engine at the incident...where ever you want. Again...it's all in what you practice/drill and what you are comfortable "doing". My point is simply that with a 2-3 R&C fire, many times it makes more sense to get water on the fire first (speaking strictly of water application) and let the engineer secure their own water after the line(s) are in operation. In the scenario stated in the article...it's a snap to do. But again...1000' between hydrants.....yeah...plan for Plan B unless Engine "2" is a couple minutes out.
Bruce - Good points as always. Yes, you always want to protect the crew. However, aggressive action (executed with skill) will many times minimize the future impact on the crew. And again....you have to practice the skills before just embarking on a journey of "trying it out for the first time on an incident". I already know you are sharp enough to do this and have done so (Kudos to you and your crews!)....as well as will continue to.
If an Engine is not on (connected to) a hydrant - its probably in the way. I have to agree with those in favor of the front of the building being reserved parking for the truck companies. Engines work under a more simple theory. Move water from source A to location B using Hose C. (I want to clarify I'm not trying to make this sound like simple work reserved for the less capable - just using simple terms to get my point across). The good news for Engine operations, unlike ladders, if Hose C doesnt make it to Location B - then Hose D and E can be connected to it to get the job done. Ladders only extend so far, and the quantity of (types of) tools carried by the trucks and Rescues which serve as (or support) trucks, those for which expected and unexpected problems are solved with, make it essential for these units to be as close to the building as (safely) possible. Truckies can carry the first due assignments' tools down the block, but what about the special equipment that becomes necessary. Moving dry hose line is a hell of a lot easier than moving a 35' extension ladder.
Second, lets take the 1 story private dwelling 100 feet from the street. No I cannot use the ladder to vent the roof. But - the engine just ran out of water, the room that was on fire has now extended to the rest of the ranch, through the attic and out the roof. Chief wants the bucket to knock it down. Can someone please move the engine, so the truck can get it. Oh and can the second due thats on the hydrant feed the truck.
Set up for what if - hope you don't need all of it. Same principal as calling more mutual aid than you think you need, rather than finding out later it was not enough.
My belief is that there MUST be a guideline that we ALL subscribe to.
The guideline being depending upon the type of occupancy, your response area, presumed manpower,etc. that traditionally the truck gets the front of the building. That being said, I was taught that 22 years ago and I teach it now. I have been to too many fires that have looked "typical" and the shyte hit the fan. Water issues i.e. frozen hydrants, burst lengths, TL won't go into PTO, SCBA malfunction, partial interior collapse, fire extension, rollover, security gates, window bars, and my list goes on including being at fires that killed one or more of US. Also had a friend and fellow ranter dive out a third floor window into a moving TL basket as fire chased him out. If he chooses to share the particulars he can. I will say that he is very lucky to be alive if not burned up real bad. Experience was on his side and he saw the signs.
Agreeing with "Xtruckboss" on never saying never. Unfortunately sometimes we get caught in the middle of an operation and realize that we are in a shyte position and a choice has to be made. Most recently in my own experience I had the roof and took two junior firefighters with me. Heavy fire in two floors of two occupied MD attached frames. Extremely mild pitched peaked roof (say that five times fast). Saw YellowBrown smoke pushing with authority from roof vents and seems of the fascia. Signs that fire is in the attic space were numerous. There was an entire block to lose and had this fire took control of the cockloft area in plain english we would have been fvcked. This fire was also in our adjoining response area and I hadn't a clue as to the construction prior to arrival. Upon footing the roof I had one junior guy start takign all the "natrual" vents. I put the other on the peak at the ridge of the most severe exposure and told him to start opening up with a K-12. Having been to frame fires and seeing them advance much further than we could get ahead of it, I made the decision to not open up the roof over the fire building. Figured I was wasting my time to be honest and wouls wind up chasing it. Prooved the fruitful move as we all kept the fire within a total of four occupancies.
Long story longer, the roof was an old original form of what trusses have become today.
Supports braced along the roof rafters to take away the bounce in them. Looking back should I have taken these two guys with me??? For the experience of getting to cut a roof during actual fire conditions in 95 degree heat??? Yes. The fact that we could have gone through to our screaming bloody deaths??? No. I beat myself up for two weeks that I did not learn the construction prior to cutting from my interior team. There was good experience on the fire floor. The smoke condition was extremely prohibitive of seeing the construction from above. Sometimes if not everytime we do things at fires and we learn for the next time. I can't say I'll "never" go on a truss roof again.I won;t consciously cut one though. One thing I can tell you is that WE should take every fire we go to and learn that conditions change in an instant and as "xtruck" says with enthusiasm "firemen die" as a relsult.
I ALWAYS tell my ECC to take a hydrant. Why?
Truck has to FE.
Find the fire,
Outside Vent Positions have to get tools, ladder, size-up and prepare to vent.
In this time we can get a hydrant, or at least begin to while the Officer communicates with the Inside Team of the Truck and figures out the stretch and gives a heads up as to diameter hose we might want to stretch. (A guideline if you will)
With building construction as tight as it is today and with soaring fuel costs it is only going to get tighter, the days of fire out windows are not as frequent as in the 80's and earlier. We are arriving pre-flashover, in bunker gear and getting much closer to the seat of the fire than ever before. Buildings are disposable, firemen are NOT. Taking the extra 60 seconds (regardless fo fire growth opinions.) brings ammunition for our attack. WE bring the life hazard. WE GO HOME AFTER EVERY FIRE.
Take all of your "scenarios" and add a dead firefighter to it. When NIOSH, the locals, the feds and of course the family of our dead brother show up to find that a hydrant was not in play when the fire took off and he dies because WE were out of ammo ........congrats you just commited murder of one of your own IMO.
Having guidelines in place and understanding the variables regarding types of nozzles to choose from, foam vs. water, PPV vs. traditional venting, and so on helps remove the NEVERS and ALWAYS' from our vocabulary with the exception of the obvious ones i.e. knowingly cutting a trussed roof.
As for how one handles one self out in public and representing the vocation, it is the memberships responsibility to teach the younger brothers that there is culpability for ones actions and a good kick in the ass doesn't hurt either. Have done it numerous times and will do it again.
As for candidate selection, that is a legal issue where I live and we (the membership) have no say in who comes in or not.
As for the probie cleaning......its called tradition and fraternity which is slowly but surely being eroded from the fire service and this job whether paid or volunteer is becoming like the cops. And there in lies a tragedy.
My last "Never" for today.
NEVER FORGET.
Stay Safe All.
Last edited by FaceToTheFloor : 08-19-2008 at 08:46 PM.
In my humble opinion I think you may be misinterpreting what the good chief is saying. Step out of you boxes for a moment and realize what he means is that there are no absolutes in the science of fire fighting.
He is correct in stating place the truck where it will do the most good while that may be the front of the building in some cases. in my district it would be useless to have the truck in the front where I can’t use the bucket but if it’s in the rear I can access two sides of the building and the roof with it.
While it is good to acquirer a positive water source there are occasions where it is not always going to happen If as you roll in to the scene and find the hydrant OOS do you go and find another one before you start to attack the fire which should be able to be handled by the 500 gallons on the truck If nothing else the 500 gallons should slow the progression of the fire while a water source is acquired whether it be a second due engine or a hardline to the pool in the back yard. And if you use all of the water at least you slowed the progress of the fire before you back out.
As for the venting of truss roofs realize how important the concept of vertical venting is to the safety of the Brothers/Sisters inside. If it’s not safe to be on the roof then it’s not safe to be under it either. Of course you could always vent from the bucket if you had to.
The proper nozzle is the one you train with and under stand they all have their place in the toolbox.
I believe his bottom line point is that there are no absolutes in the fire service each incident is different and can only be effectively handled if we train properly and use our heads. No fire is the same as the one before it and will be different than the one after it.
That being said if you want to use those words properly as it applies to the fire service YOU MUST Think before you act, NEVER lose your situational awareness on the fire ground , and ALWAYS apply your training to your actions.
Sorry, I must start by responding to you admitting first hand that “I have swallowed the Cool Aid”. Yes I have read these golden rules of judgment and have bought into them.
Lets start with #1 “The Truck must ALWAYS park at the front of the building”. To me that rule makes sense. If we allowed the practice of parking the engine, rescue or local police car in front the building, than how will the critical piece of life saving apparatus, the ladder truck, be able to utilize its finite mounted ladders. If your more than 100’ away from the fire building that truck is useless. I have been an officer for an Engine company for many years, I have never have I had difficulty stretching my lines, a thousand feet of hose goes a long way. As for that one story building? When things get real bad by no decision of yours, that tower ladder with its bucket swung low in front of the building corrects a lot of problems! Steams of water much greater than anything my guys can hold goes onto the fire. So yes there might be a time when it isn’t perfect but the rule of the truck owns the front remains the best. “that’s the way it will always be” type of a rule.
My thoughts on comment #2. “The first arriving Engine will ALWAYS take a hydrant”. I come from a different school than you. I look for the hydrant on the way in, I never assume. I have seen many fires that people thought were nickel and dime operations and things go bad. Two examples are balloon construction and thermal pane windows hiding the real fire. As an officer I am there to protect the occupants and my personnel, if it takes extra hose to pack to keep them safe so be it. I guess your logic allows your guys to go below grade with out a water supply. Hey it’s only a storage room!
My thoughts on comment # 3. “You must NEVER vent a lightweight truss roof! It’s too dangerous!” You disagree with that statement. I am not an expert on truck roo
The Craniumanalectomy
