[WFD1696]

Article 23, Section 1104 of the New York State Vehicle and Traffic law states:

"S 1104. Authorized emergency vehicles. (a) The driver of an authorized
emergency vehicle, when involved in an emergency operation, may exercise
the privileges set forth in this section, but subject to the conditions
herein stated....
(b) The driver of an authorized emergency vehicle may:
1. Stop, stand or park irrespective of the provisions of this title;
2. Proceed past a steady red signal, a flashing red signal or a stop
sign, but only after slowing down as may be necessary for safe
operation;
3. Exceed the maximum speed limits so long as he does not endanger
life or property;
4. Disregard regulations governing directions of movement or turning
in specified directions.
(c) Except for an authorized emergency vehicle operated as a police
vehicle or bicycle, the exemptions herein granted to an authorized
emergency vehicle shall apply only when audible signals are sounded from
any said vehicle while in motion by bell, horn, siren, electronic device
or exhaust whistle as may be reasonably necessary, and when the vehicle
is equipped with at least one lighted lamp so that from any direction,
under normal atmospheric conditions from a distance of five hundred feet
from such vehicle, at least one red light will be displayed and visible.
(d) An authorized emergency vehicle operated as a police, sheriff or
deputy sheriff vehicle may exceed the maximum speed limits for the
purpose of calibrating such vehicles` speedometer. Notwithstanding any
other law, rule or regulation to the contrary, a police, sheriff or
deputy sheriff bicycle operated as an authorized emergency vehicle shall
not be prohibited from using any sidewalk, highway, street or roadway
during an emergency operation.
(e) The foregoing provisions shall not relieve the driver of an
authorized emergency vehicle from the duty to drive with due regard for
the safety of all persons, nor shall such provisions protect the driver
from the consequences of his reckless disregard for the safety of
others.
(f) Notwithstanding any other law, rule or regulation to the contrary,
an ambulance operated in the course of an emergency shall not be
prohibited from using any highway, street or roadway; provided, however,
that an authority having jurisdiction over any such highway, street or
roadway may specifically prohibit travel thereon by ambulances if such
authority shall deem such travel to be extremely hazardous and would
endanger patients being transported thereby."

Training is not an emergency operation. Therefore, any chauffeur, or any officer who knowingly allows a chauffeur to respond to a training scenario in a manner inconsistent with the VTL would be held legally liable by even the dumbest of juries.

[MassapequaF.D.]

OK, this is getting ridiculous....I want to STOP talking about the driving! This form was started cause I had questions, and every time i ask WHY this drill was run it doesn't get answered. I would like to know the reason WHY this drill was run? what was the point?. What were they training for? and im sure you don't know exactly what XXFD was doing, but as stated in this form others have done this drill..What was the pont of the drill, please explain the drill!!

[ENG 5 INE 154]

I have to agree with ESU, regardless if the drill is toned out as an alarm or not it doesn't dictate how you can drive. You have to respect all NYS laws regardless if it's an actual job / drill / whatever.

And as to why the drill is being toned out, it gets your mind set into how it would feel as if it was the real deal. My department does it all the time in suffolk but they do state before the alarm is toned out that it's a drill, for example it's a 15 on a 13-35 or a 15 on a 16/23 scuba rescue. So it's made very clear that it is merely a drill, but none the less it puts you in the mindset of what you're heading in to.

I agree though that it probably would affect someone's driving if it was a real deal. But none the less it doesn't say you're allowed to run red lights, run people off the road etc. It happens all too much anyway half of the time, even for b/s alarms.

The only thing I can vouch and say why it was toned out as a "real alarm" was the fact that it was to actually see how the department would react at a job and as we all know it was done for training purposes. I think it was more of an experiment for the department, just to see how drills should be run for in the future and what needs to be corrected, more so of a critique of the entire department.

As for members in the department NOT knowing what the signals are, specifying that the call is actually a drill, that boils right back down to when you are a probie, you should know that and remember that always. To be honest that's your own personal fault at that point. You should always know what you're responding to, even if a few random numbers are thrown in there that you may have forgotten. But now you know it's obviously the signal for a DRILL.

[WFD1696]

Originally Posted by MassapequaF.D.

OK, this is getting ridiculous....I want to STOP talking about the driving! This form was started cause I had questions, and every time i ask WHY this drill was run it doesn't get answered. I would like to know the reason WHY this drill was run? what was the point?. What were they training for? and im sure you don't know exactly what XXFD was doing, but as stated in this form others have done this drill..What was the pont of the drill, please explain the drill!!

Sorry, but the most hazardous part of such a drill to both us and the public at large is the DRIVING. 9/11 aside, most LODDs are from traffic accidents and cardiac events not actual firefighting.

Kye994 asked for our opinions about the appropriateness of running a drill in such a manner. If you want to ask why a particular drill was run a particular way, talk to the white hats of that department.

[Navy076996]

Originally Posted by WFD1696

Sorry, but the most hazardous part of such a drill to both us and the public at large is the DRIVING. 9/11 aside, most LODDs are from traffic accidents and cardiac events not actual firefighting.

Kye994 asked for our opinions about the appropriateness of running a drill in such a manner. If you want to ask why a particular drill was run a particular way, talk to the white hats of that deparment.

+1

The bottom line with this is that it puts your men and the public in unnecessary danger. In a perfect world, everyone would show no emotion, act calmly and professionally, and no heat of the moment mistakes would be made. Everyone here knows that isn't true. We can't all be salty old city guys who have seen more fires than they have sunsets. People get worked up. Now you drop tones for a fake 10 with occupants trapped---do you honestly think that everyone is going to sit at that 2 minute red light in town? Do you think that every one of your rigs is going to make a complete stop at every intersection in town? Do you think that your young truckie is going to be as careful and methodical throwing/climbing his ladder and clearing his windows while doing VES? If you do, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.

Now if something happens to these guys while responding, sure, it's their ass. The judge can shake his finger at them for not following the law. They have to take their licks. You are right, their response is their response, but is it even when they shouldn't have been on the road responding in the first place...?

If you, as a fire OFFICER, can sit back after toning out a fake fire with no indication of it being a drill and watch your men place themselves and the public in UNNECESSARY danger with no problem whatsoever, you should not be a leader of men. That is incredibly irreponsible. With any training evolution, safety is PARAMOUNT. You need to look at this from a risk vs. reward standpoint. Sure, these guys might get some better training out of it, and you might get a better picture of where your department stands operationally, but what is the use if your "drill" happens to cause severe bodily harm or death? Your drill, which was designed to help your men save lives, just took one. Shame on you.

What is so hard about adding 'THIS IS NOT AN ALARM, THIS IS A DRILL, RESPOND WITH TRAFFIC' to the tone out? Is it really going to take that much away from the training

[1stdueindaView]

Originally Posted by MassapequaF.D.

OK, this is getting ridiculous....I want to STOP talking about the driving! This form was started cause I had questions, and every time i ask WHY this drill was run it doesn't get answered. I would like to know the reason WHY this drill was run? what was the point?. What were they training for? and im sure you don't know exactly what XXFD was doing, but as stated in this form others have done this drill..What was the pont of the drill, please explain the drill!!

The point of the drill is preparation for an actual alarm. Why do any departments drill? To play with the shiny objects known as fire trucks? Perhaps have their picture taken with something resembling a hand tool? No.. they drill/practice/train, etc. for the purposes of preparation, sharpening of skills, and utilitize productive stragedies and tactics to mitigate situations in which we can protect life and property.

Now, if your asking why in fact it gets toned out, and i can only comment on the drill that was organized by my department, was to add an additional element of communications and the implementation of tactics when pulling up to a scene.

As was stated previously, my Department conducted the drill on a day when we normally are assembled at HQ and had a majority of the personnel already in quarters before the tone out. This was done to minimalize the risk of a potentially hazardous situation as well as the exercise being toned out as a Signal 38 aka Drill.

Some people will agree that toning out adds a bit of realism to the drill, some say it adds different elements, such as communications, others don't like the risk factor or to them it sounds silly..

However, i think its because all of us are buffs and when we learn that "a job" "a 10" "a pin" etc. is a drill, we all get a lil pissed.

[FREELANCEFF]

A "wise" man once said, "Train Like You Play"!

[Navy076996]

Originally Posted by FREELANCEFF

A "wise" man once said, "Train Like You Play"!

I usually play with a bottle of Olde English in one hand

[MassapequaF.D.]

1stdueindaview"Now, if your asking why in fact it gets toned out, and i can only comment on the drill that was organized by my department, was to add an additional element of communications and the implementation of tactics when pulling up to a scene."

I understand that but what scene would u be pulling up to? a invisible building?, a training center?, or a random building saying"were here to train"?.

1STDUEINDAVIEW"As was stated previously, my Department conducted the drill on a day when we normally are assembled at HQ and had a majority of the personnel already in quarters before the tone out. This was done to minimalize the risk of a potentially hazardous situation as well as the exercise being toned out as a Signal 38 aka Drill."

Thats fine, that makes sence, Sunday morning everyone's at the FH for training anyway lets tone out a alarm as training...But what XXFD did it at Night During a storm, Was that right? Was that the safest time to do it?

PLEASE READ WHAT NAVY076996 WROTE.....THAT MAKES THE MOST SENCE

OK lets say this, Your a 1 year member, you havent made the rig for a 10 yett, your home on a stormy night, the call comes over for a Building fire, Smoke showing, Possible people traped Sig 38....You want to make this fire, this member stops at all red lights but then proceads through, At the last light at the fire house he T-Bones a car with a family...Its his fault, BUT how does it sound to Newsday,That Family, and the Public, that this young kid was responding to a call that came over as"FIRE" and "People Traped". But turned out to be all made up by the cheif as pratice?

You hear "Building Fire" "People Traped" do you REALLY think anyone pays atention to the Sig 38 in their? Especially the new guys who have noidea what a 38 is? Im a 4 year member, i never rembere ever hearing a Sig 38...Never knew what that was till i brought up this form....

[whatsyourrush]

This is getting crazy. Everyone knows the rules for driving there pov's to calls. And everyone know's the rules for driving the rigs. However, bottom line is that when the call sounds like a job our addreneline starts to flow, and alot of us rush and get careless and maybe even dare I say reckless trying to get to the firehouse. You guys can say whatever you want about rules, and responcibility, and you can quote all the written law you want, but when a chief/officer conducts one of these "surprise" drills, he puts the civilians and there property that he/she swore to protect at risk.

[rollover]

There can sometimes be disastrous consequences. Quite a few years ago, our Chiefs decided on a real life drill. This was still in the day of alarm boxes. I had been tipped that a drill was going to be conducted in the early evening at the high school. In order to make the call sound real, they had people call in from the school saying they were trapped in the building. They had calls from the neighborhood saying the school was on fire, and for good measure they had the 3 nearest street boxes pulled. Even the dispatcher thought this was the real deal.

Since I had been tipped, I told as many guys as I could find, and we were sitting on the ramp fully geared up and ready to go 21 as soon as the alarm came in. One of the older guys, an ex-chief, didn't know. He was home eating dinner when the tones went off. I was riding the back step (yes, it was that long ago) and I could see the guy following the truck with such intensity in his face, truly believing that this was the real thing with kids trapped. EVENTUALLY, a signal 38 was transmitted. Unfortunately, as we were stretching lines etc, he came up to me (I was a 2nd lt) and said he didn't feel well and was going home. I said fine, and asked a guy to drive him. Due to my own lack of experience/judgment/insight I did not send him to EMS to be checked before he left. He died of a massive heart attack on the way home. I will always feel somewhat responsible for this terrific man's death. I will also always wonder if the stress and excitment of responding to what sounded like a sure 10 with people trapped didn't contribute to his heart attack.

If it is not the real thing, we should not be responding as if it were.

[smokeNflames]

If you have a problem with the way a department opperated a training why dont you just call there chiefs and ask? I personally think this is a good way to train but there can be ways to make it safer ( i.e tell the drivers, officers about the drill. Get feedback from them on what needs to be worked on. Even better tone it out as an afa, why get everyone hyped up for nothing. Once you get on the road then transmit the 38. drivers will already know its a drill the people who blow off bs calls wont go and drive like a bat out of hell for an afa and all works out in the end)

[oos]

Originally Posted by Kellytool54

If guys are mad because they responded to "surprise" drill and gave up something such as you said, family etc then maybe this isnt for them. Im sure if you have a little time in the dept you are aware that being a volunteer requires sacrifices. As others stated you should be using due regard when driving. And yes you are responding in your own car, your under your own insurance, medical etc. So if the tones go off and you dont like going to a surprise drill and you think that this call is, then dont go. No one is forcing you to leave your home. If your dept does surprise drills and you dont like, run for office and do something about it. If someone hits and kills someone who is responding to the firehouse for an acutal "SIG 10", does that make it ok because he was responding to a real fire?

No.. it doesnt, but talking about throwing salt on a fresh wound. seriously, initially you care nothing about the fire aka drill, when you hit someone... but when you later find out it was a drill, that probably you would'nt have gone if the drill was announced. im just stating the facts, we all know what the rules are, but then theres also reality. sort of like when youre in the academy, then get released to the streets. see a difference?? all im saying is, drilling is important, but not under false pretenses.

[smokeNflames]

Originally Posted by oos

No.. it doesnt, but talking about throwing salt on a fresh wound. seriously, initially you care nothing about the fire aka drill, when you hit someone... but when you later find out it was a drill, that probably you would'nt have gone if the drill was announced. im just stating the facts, we all know what the rules are, but then theres also reality. sort of like when youre in the academy, then get released to the streets. see a difference?? all im saying is, drilling is important, but not under false pretenses.

supports the theory of toning it out as something else like an afa. If you leave your family or job for that you probably would have left it for a report of a fire